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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:03 am
Or more specifically, the source of power. Communists and socialists: Where do you think the majority of power lies in modern western capitalist society? In what way do you think that is wrong, and how would you rather see it utilised? Most importantly, why is the way you want power to be used better than the way power is used today, to what end and what purpose does your 'correction' on the use of power serve? Example, in case I'm not being clear- Quote: I think that power should be used to serve the working classes and other groups of people in the machinations of society. Power is in the hand of intellectuals and oligarchs who control information provisions in society. I think we need to give power to the workers and the masses in order allow the majority of people, and the hardest working people, control over their own lives and not to simply listen to small minorities of people and act as they say. I reject the idea that political representative democracy as it provides this power as you, a capitalist, may argue.
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:59 am
The Curse Or more specifically, the source of power. Communists and socialists: Where do you think the majority of power lies in modern western capitalist society? In what way do you think that is wrong, and how would you rather see it utilised? Most importantly, why is the way you want power to be used better than the way power is used today, to what end and what purpose does your 'correction' on the use of power serve? Example, in case I'm not being clear- Quote: I think that power should be used to serve the working classes and other groups of people in the machinations of society. Power is in the hand of intellectuals and oligarchs who control information provisions in society. I think we need to give power to the workers and the masses in order allow the majority of people, and the hardest working people, control over their own lives and not to simply listen to small minorities of people and act as they say. I reject the idea that political representative democracy as it provides this power as you, a capitalist, may argue. The main source of power in western and all capitalist societies is private property. Through private property, people are able to build their own industries and businesses thereby enabling themselves the ability to buy labour-power. Human labour-power, being the main generator of capital concentrates the wealth generated by the labour of those employed under that particular capitalist. Since capitalism is a system based completely upon commodity production and exchange, it places those who own a means of production, above society. Not only can capitalists buy labour-power, but they can buy other peoples businesses and political power as well. The state becomes the sole means of the ruling class to protect their property relations. The state only exists for this reason, and its very existence also pays homage to the existence of class struggle. What we seek to achieve is to do away with the state, private property, and private ownership of the means of production. All those factors being the chains of the working class' oppression. When you do away with private property, you do away with ones ability to own another. When the means of production are commonly owned, you destroy ones ability to stand above society, and when you smash the state, you assure that such property relations can never be established again.
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:16 pm
Hey Curse, who'd you quote?
It sounds like something Gracchvs might say, except for a notable lack of swearing, so my guess is... Either.... Mike or Rob.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:34 am
Herobane Hey Curse, who'd you quote? It sounds like something Gracchvs might say, except for a notable lack of swearing, so my guess is... Either.... Mike or Rob. No one, it was more akin to what I thought before I converted.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:50 am
Herobane Hey Curse, who'd you quote? It sounds like something Gracchvs might say, except for a notable lack of swearing, so my guess is... Either.... Mike or Rob. Sounds nothing like me at all. If it were me... Power stems from control of the productive forces of society. Currently the bourgeoisie has power because it has control of the means of production.
Power should be in the hands, however, of those who actually work those means of production, and the 'exploitation of man by man,' which is essentially temporary slavery, needs to be abolished.
The only way this can be fully achieved is through an international centrally planned economy based on soviets of workers representatives. And this will be impossible without the forcible overthrow of the explloiters, who will reject all democratic decisions that declare against their continued dominance.Now, Curse, lad. I find it rather interesting that you didn't put your own views in the OP. I also find it rather sad and pathetic. But then, what could be more pathetic than a poor defender of capitalism?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:06 am
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Now, Curse, lad. I find it rather interesting that you didn't put your own views in the OP. I also find it rather sad and pathetic. But then, what could be more pathetic than a poor defender of capitalism? Frankly, my primary interest is to explore others' ideas, not fight using my own. I think you'll find it's not uncommon for me to present my threads that way, I do so as often as I present my own dogma alongside the OP*. But, if there has to be a conspiracy in this, it has more to do with you freaking out about how this guild isn't allowed to be critical of communism. If I were to do that, I'd be giving you free ammo to kick me. *Because this sounds dodgy without proof. You will not find my own position in the OP of this, this, this, this, this or this thread to name a few. You will also find that this trend is no different to what I do here in this guild as here and indeed here, even when my opinions are provided, I am more interested in garnering responses from the communists on communism than I am on challenging communism itself, or defending ideas of capitalism. Gracchvs ol' friend, trolling is best done when it is done accurately.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:29 pm
The Curse Louis-Auguste Robespierre Now, Curse, lad. I find it rather interesting that you didn't put your own views in the OP. I also find it rather sad and pathetic. But then, what could be more pathetic than a poor defender of capitalism? Frankly, my primary interest is to explore others' ideas, not fight using my own. I think you'll find it's not uncommon for me to present my threads that way, I do so as often as I present my own dogma alongside the OP*. But, if there has to be a conspiracy in this, it has more to do with you freaking out about how this guild isn't allowed to be critical of communism. If I were to do that, I'd be giving you free ammo to kick me. *Because this sounds dodgy without proof. You will not find my own position in the OP of this, this, this, this, this or this thread to name a few. You will also find that this trend is no different to what I do here in this guild as here and indeed here, even when my opinions are provided, I am more interested in garnering responses from the communists on communism than I am on challenging communism itself, or defending ideas of capitalism. Gracchvs ol' friend, trolling is best done when it is done accurately.I just find it how interesting it is that you are so weak you cannot even put your own views up. Unless you have a guilty conscience?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:28 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre The Curse Louis-Auguste Robespierre Now, Curse, lad. I find it rather interesting that you didn't put your own views in the OP. I also find it rather sad and pathetic. But then, what could be more pathetic than a poor defender of capitalism? Frankly, my primary interest is to explore others' ideas, not fight using my own. I think you'll find it's not uncommon for me to present my threads that way, I do so as often as I present my own dogma alongside the OP*. But, if there has to be a conspiracy in this, it has more to do with you freaking out about how this guild isn't allowed to be critical of communism. If I were to do that, I'd be giving you free ammo to kick me. *Because this sounds dodgy without proof. You will not find my own position in the OP of this, this, this, this, this or this thread to name a few. You will also find that this trend is no different to what I do here in this guild as here and indeed here, even when my opinions are provided, I am more interested in garnering responses from the communists on communism than I am on challenging communism itself, or defending ideas of capitalism. Gracchvs ol' friend, trolling is best done when it is done accurately.I just find it how interesting it is that you are so weak you cannot even put your own views up. Unless you have a guilty conscience? Sigh. You should pay attention to the white text above. Anyway, you made your contribution to the thread, I'm going to post thoughts and further queries on a couple of posts soon.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:47 pm
The Curse Louis-Auguste Robespierre The Curse Louis-Auguste Robespierre Now, Curse, lad. I find it rather interesting that you didn't put your own views in the OP. I also find it rather sad and pathetic. But then, what could be more pathetic than a poor defender of capitalism? Frankly, my primary interest is to explore others' ideas, not fight using my own. I think you'll find it's not uncommon for me to present my threads that way, I do so as often as I present my own dogma alongside the OP*. But, if there has to be a conspiracy in this, it has more to do with you freaking out about how this guild isn't allowed to be critical of communism. If I were to do that, I'd be giving you free ammo to kick me. *Because this sounds dodgy without proof. You will not find my own position in the OP of this, this, this, this, this or this thread to name a few. You will also find that this trend is no different to what I do here in this guild as here and indeed here, even when my opinions are provided, I am more interested in garnering responses from the communists on communism than I am on challenging communism itself, or defending ideas of capitalism. Gracchvs ol' friend, trolling is best done when it is done accurately.I just find it how interesting it is that you are so weak you cannot even put your own views up. Unless you have a guilty conscience? Sigh. You should pay attention to the white text above. Anyway, you made your contribution to the thread, I'm going to post thoughts and further queries on a couple of posts soon. Weak excuse is weak.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:19 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre You should be more honest with yourself. Rather than endlessly chanting stuff which you think will make you sound like a champion of communism, slayer of capitalism, you should have just, y'know, asked politely. "Oh Curse I'm curious, what about you, what do you think?'. Manners get you places, you should know that mr. labour force. Now onto what you said in relevance to my thread. Quote: Power stems from control of the productive forces of society. Currently the bourgeoisie has power because it has control of the means of production. Isn't that power completely dependent on the consent of the working class anyway? No matter how harsh the laws may be, a strike is a strike, after all. Quote: And this will be impossible without the forcible overthrow of the explloiters, who will reject all democratic decisions that declare against their continued dominance. Do you happen to have an example of this happening, perchance?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:28 pm
Comrade Rob The main source of power in western and all capitalist societies is private property. Through private property, people are able to build their own industries and businesses thereby enabling themselves the ability to buy labour-power. Human labour-power, being the main generator of capital concentrates the wealth generated by the labour of those employed under that particular capitalist. So essentially, you're saying that private property is a method by which exploitation may occur. That's nothing knew for a communist to believe of course, but I wonder if you think that it's guaranteed that exploitation will occur? Is it inevitable that private property = misconcentrated power? Quote: Since capitalism is a system based completely upon commodity production and exchange, it places those who own a means of production, above society. Not only can capitalists buy labour-power, but they can buy other peoples businesses and political power as well. The state becomes the sole means of the ruling class to protect their property relations. The state only exists for this reason, and its very existence also pays homage to the existence of class struggle. Following on from my last question, you mention that the state becomes an enforcer of the abuse of labour power. If a democratic government elects its representatives, isn't this exploitation undergone with consent from the populace? To elaborate, the working class, which you propose to champion, is a major component of the voting population. If they felt hard done by, why don't they simply elect favourable politicians? Quote: What we seek to achieve is to do away with the state, private property, and private ownership of the means of production. All those factors being the chains of the working class' oppression. When you do away with private property, you do away with ones ability to own another. When the means of production are commonly owned, you destroy ones ability to stand above society, and when you smash the state, you assure that such property relations can never be established again. But why would that be any better? What if I were to propose that enforcing democratic rule at the workforce level creates tyranny of majority, whereby what the gang of violent revolutionaries says, goes, and the poor conservative farmer who just wants to plough his farm doesn't get any control over it any more, jsut because the Soviet says so?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:32 pm
The Curse Louis-Auguste Robespierre You should be more honest with yourself. Rather than endlessly chanting stuff which you think will make you sound like a champion of communism, slayer of capitalism, you should have just, y'know, asked politely. "Oh Curse I'm curious, what about you, what do you think?'. Manners get you places, you should know that mr. labour force. Now onto what you said in relevance to my thread. Quote: Power stems from control of the productive forces of society. Currently the bourgeoisie has power because it has control of the means of production. Isn't that power completely dependent on the consent of the working class anyway? No matter how harsh the laws may be, a strike is a strike, after all. Quote: And this will be impossible without the forcible overthrow of the explloiters, who will reject all democratic decisions that declare against their continued dominance. Yes, it is. "The only illegal strike is the one that fails." Obviously, I aim to change the current consciousness. Do you happen to have an example of this happening, perchance? Yes, it is. "The only illegal strike is the one that fails." Obviously, I aim to change the current consciousness. and France: 1790-1815, 1848-49, 1870-71 Russia: 1817-24 Germany: 1918-19 Korea: 1950-53 etc.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:35 pm
The Curse But why would that be any better? What if I were to propose that enforcing democratic rule at the workforce level creates tyranny of majority, whereby what the gang of violent revolutionaries says, goes, and the poor conservative farmer who just wants to plough his farm doesn't get any control over it any more, jsut because the Soviet says so? Wait... you say that like there is something wrong with it, but for the life of me, I can't see what...
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:40 pm
Quote: Yes, it is. "The only illegal strike is the one that fails." Obviously, I aim to change the current consciousness. and France: 1790-1815, 1848-49, 1870-71 Russia: 1817-24 Germany: 1918-19 Korea: 1950-53 etc. Quick response as I'm about to busy myself with other things, but can you provide some details? I'd like to know what the democracy in 1800's Russia was.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:43 pm
The Curse Quote: Yes, it is. "The only illegal strike is the one that fails." Obviously, I aim to change the current consciousness. and France: 1790-1815, 1848-49, 1870-71 Russia: 1817-24 Germany: 1918-19 Korea: 1950-53 etc. Quick response as I'm about to busy myself with other things, but can you provide some details? I'd like to know what the democracy in 1800's Russia was. typo. Should have said '1917-24.' However, I imagine you knew when I meant.
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