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NightHeron

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 am


I would normally never breach this topic on a Christian board (check out my gross generalization) but after skimming through the threads on homosexuality and polygamy I thought this might be interesting discussion fodder....

What are your views on incest? Incest is forbidden in Leviticus - as is homosexuality, shaving, and polyester. Christians generally tend to pick and choose from Leviticus because of some of its more questionable regulations (polyester? seriously?) yet incest has consistently remained among the laws that stay firmly in their place. Of course, it helps that incest has been taboo in just about every culture since the dawning of mankind due to the biological effects of repeated inbreeding. (Though there are plenty of unrelated couples in which one or both individuals are carriers for a genetic disease and we certainly wouldn't deny them marriage.)

Various studies have shown that sexual attraction between siblings (or, as is most often the case, the lack thereof) is almost purely psychological. Unrelated individuals raised as siblings usually lack any attraction towards one another, whereas biological siblings who have never met one another may experience sexual attraction once meeting for the first time as teenagers or adults.

From both a social and biblical standpoint, do you think that incest between two consenting adults is ethical or not? I'd love to hear from all ends of the spectrum.
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:17 pm


Huh, interesting topic! And, uh, I really have no idea. This is one of those topics where I don't know. I mean, my idea is that as long as the relationship is healthy and and everybody is consenting, and nobody is being hurt, I could care less what anyone does behind closed doors, really. However... what about procreation? I would like it if you went and found a bit of information about that for this thread.

Violet_Abyss
Vice Captain


SinfulGuillotine
Captain

Perfect Trash

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:46 pm


Well, honestly, provided it's between consenting adults, I say whatever gets your socks off.

Also, incest-related birth defects aren't nearly as common as most people make out. I'm not entirely sure of the numbers, but they're surprisingly low, even between close relations (as opossed to cousins or something). And honestly, a lot of things can heighten the chances of birth defects. Even something as simple as the mother being over 35 when she gives birth can increase the odds that the child will have something like Downs Syndrome, but I don't see people screaming for women to stop having sex when they get into their mid-30's.

All that being said, I have to say that I would be concerned about possible psychological issues that could come from being in a romantic/sexual relationship with a close relation that you grew up with. There's all different kinds of love, and most "psychologically normal" people can easily differenciate between something like non-sexual familial love and romantic, sexual (eros) love. If the person was not someone that you lived with your whole life (even if they were a close biological relation), I think it would be a lot more psycholgically healthy than if you were in a relationship with someone like a parent or sibling that you have close, social familial ties with.

Granted, that's all pure speculation since I don't have any sort of degree in psychology. Just throwing out ideas. At the end of the day, provided that everyone is happy and consenting, I'm not going to make a fuss.
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:13 pm


wow wow wow oh my goodness um im totally drawing a blank here wow everything in my mind tells me this is sooooooo wrong mut then again why should any type of love be denyed while ive never had such attractions i can say that when you love someone you learn to see past these flaws and love them for who they are but then again arent we like " programed to not have those kind of feelings. but the more i think about this the more i have to say when do we as humans have to draw a line that can simplely not be crossed if we beging to allow bothers and sisters to develope sexual relationship then whats next? I know this point has been brought up again and again for subjects like gay marrige but as soon as we make this legal will people family friends and loved ones wish to engage with animals legally? I mean this marrige issue stems way back sarting with things like race and age sex & ect. and the way its going are we going to be protesting interspeical relationship in the "near" future? dont get me wrong if you love somebody/somthing go for it take he risk and put all of your heart into it but i know there is a point were we HAVE to draw a line.

the kinky boot beast


NightHeron

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:20 pm


Violet_Abyss
Huh, interesting topic! And, uh, I really have no idea. This is one of those topics where I don't know. I mean, my idea is that as long as the relationship is healthy and and everybody is consenting, and nobody is being hurt, I could care less what anyone does behind closed doors, really. However... what about procreation? I would like it if you went and found a bit of information about that for this thread.

Certainly. Here is a hodgepodge of articles from several different online sources (including Macmillan and World of Biology) that delves into both the societal and the medical complications of incest. It's a great starting point.

If you want to get really into it (and I mean REALLY into it) here are a few sites to help you determine the "inbreeding coefficient" between two individuals. (The inbreeding coefficient is a number between 0 and 1 that represents the probability that the offspring of a given couple will inherit two identical alleles for any gene, 0 being 0% and 1 being 100%. An unrelated couple would have an inbreeding coefficient of 0. The inbreeding coefficient does not take into account the fact that an unrelated couple might share the same recessive alleles, and of course if neither individual possesses a certain allele no resulting offspring will present with the allele, either.)

This site actually discusses canine breeding, but it has a great graph illustrating the increase of the inbreeding coefficient as generations of brother-sister mating increase. It's virtually impossible to reach an inbreeding coefficient of 1, as the graph depicts.

The actual formula for the inbreeding coefficient is so complex that it really requires software, but a sample of a very simplified process can be found here.

*P.S. Did you know Darwin married his cousin? heart
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:22 pm


the kinky boot beast
I know this point has been brought up again and again for subjects like gay marrige but as soon as we make this legal will people family friends and loved ones wish to engage with animals legally?

Well, the major difference here is that humans can consent and animals can't.

Though when you get into species like chimpanzees and dolphins.... +is struck down by the angry hand of God+

NightHeron


Violet_Abyss
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:32 pm


NightHeron
Violet_Abyss
Huh, interesting topic! And, uh, I really have no idea. This is one of those topics where I don't know. I mean, my idea is that as long as the relationship is healthy and and everybody is consenting, and nobody is being hurt, I could care less what anyone does behind closed doors, really. However... what about procreation? I would like it if you went and found a bit of information about that for this thread.

Certainly. Here is a hodgepodge of articles from several different online sources (including Macmillan and World of Biology) that delves into both the societal and the medical complications of incest. It's a great starting point.

If you want to get really into it (and I mean REALLY into it) here are a few sites to help you determine the "inbreeding coefficient" between two individuals. (The inbreeding coefficient is a number between 0 and 1 that represents the probability that the offspring of a given couple will inherit two identical alleles for any gene, 0 being 0% and 1 being 100%. An unrelated couple would have an inbreeding coefficient of 0. The inbreeding coefficient does not take into account the fact that an unrelated couple might share the same recessive alleles, and of course if neither individual possesses a certain allele no resulting offspring will present with the allele, either.)

This site actually discusses canine breeding, but it has a great graph illustrating the increase of the inbreeding coefficient as generations of brother-sister mating increase. It's virtually impossible to reach an inbreeding coefficient of 1, as the graph depicts.

The actual formula for the inbreeding coefficient is so complex that it really requires software, but a sample of a very simplified process can be found here.

*P.S. Did you know Darwin married his cousin? heart


Interesting... now you should put them at the bottom of the OP or somewhere like that.
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 10:12 am


Quote:
Well, the major difference here is that humans can consent and animals can't.

well I guess I didnt think of that, you know consent I hate to bring up the species card but it really seems that the more we allow the more people are going to push for things like that I dont know really just a thought.

the kinky boot beast


Sapphist

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:50 pm


well, incest causes birth defects.therefore it harms someone.
but at the same time-is it still love?
i've kinda developed a theory on it all.if it harms something-then it shouldint be legal.but if it doesnt,then it shouldint.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:54 pm


Lieba
well, incest causes birth defects.therefore it harms someone.
but at the same time-is it still love?
i've kinda developed a theory on it all.if it harms something-then it shouldint be legal.but if it doesnt,then it shouldint.
It doesn't cause birth defects. It carries a higher risk of birth defects than children conceived between a couple that is not inter-related. But lots of things can increase the risk of birth defects, including something as simple as the woman being over the age of 35. Should older women not be allowed to have sex for the same reason that incest should be illegal?

Also, what about homosexual incest, or simply heterosexual incest that does not produce children? Romantic/sexual relationship =/= babies.

SinfulGuillotine
Captain

Perfect Trash


Nemithena

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:18 pm


It's just a murmur from the common room, but if creationalists were right, doesn't that mean...well, you know....the first humans were all from the same family? If God created everything needed in seven days, humans fashioned out of clay past the deadline don't count. Therefore, Eve had it off with one of her sons, or had lots and lots of special cuddles with Adam and their children had it off with each other.

But, like I said, this was from the sixth form common room.
Possibly while black market caffiene was going around.
(The school's all healthy eating. Yak.)

And, as much as my mind is telling me there's no way I'd want to marry a brother, I'm sure it might be different if I never thought of this person as a brother. Ophaned, adopted seperatly, later unlikely loving encounter....be weird, but he'd never really feel like my brother, would he?

And, genetically speaking, I'd think the chances of picking up diseases wasn't really affected. If your parents carried an allele for Huntngton's, for example, yes your kid (and their kids) would be screwed. But hey, so would you. But if a condition is recessive, it's unlikely. And like MR. Guillotine said, having children older, etc., is a bigger player. Especially in Down's (which is determined pre-fertilisation, as it is a rarity in the egg's chromosomes).
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:43 am


NightHeron
I but after skimming through the threads on homosexuality and polygamy

Go check the threads again. It's polyamorus. Stemming from the root words of poly (multi or many//more than one) and amor (to love). It is a very subtle difference, but an important one.

Sorry, I'm nitpicking, but that bothered me. I'll answer this tomorrow.

Tiager


Tiager

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:24 pm


Everything that I think about this has basically been said.
Probably one of the main reasons it's prohibited is because of the psychological damage that can be done. Once you get into incest you're treading into some dangerous psychological territory, especially with abusive parents. I know you've all be talking about consenting, but in certain types of abuse the victim is fooled into consenting, thinking that the abuser cares so very much for them to the point that the victim has trouble functioning without the abuser. What about the single dad with a teenage daughter that gets sexually frustrated? Should he just get her drunk enough so that she consents? There are lots of these situation where consent becomes hazy. It's bad enough when it happens, but it seems worse when it happens in a family.

Also, if one generation did it, how could you tell the next that they couldn't? "Yeah, I married my sister and you're our child, but you can't do the same thing." When does it stop?

Just my opinion. Sorry for nitpicking, but it was late and I was irritated.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:25 pm


Inbreeding is wrong and cruel to the child, so I am of course against incest. Its really creepy. BUT, I saw this movie where a man cheated on his wife and had a white boy with his wife and a (half)Mexican girl with his mistress, then the kids grew up together in the same town not knowing and in high school started to date. Since the dad knew he flipped and kept them apart not telling anyone. Later the woman married someone else and had children and moved away. When they were in their forties the father had died, the woman had gotten divorced (and her tubes tied) and moved back. The two fell in love and had sex, still not knowing..when they found out they decided to stay together because her tubes were tied..I think they even got married. It was really sweet and romantic. So I believe there are exceptions.

Also I think first cousins is disgusting! It has been proven that serious harm does not come from cousins having children but i still don't like it and I think only in certain cases is it o.k.

Susanna Kaysen

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Anarya

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:37 pm


I think Enj pointed out an important point. There will be a lot of psychological issues involved if the relationship is between two family members that have lived together as a family for most of their lives.

To be more specific: say a father and daughter sexual relationship. Even if it is consentual, there will be psychological issues if the daughter has lived with her parents most of her life. There is actually a term for this, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. It's been a year and a half since my psychology classes. In such cases, there is always some sort of controlling aspect, which may or may not be abusive, though in most cases it is abusive. This can cause great psychological harm, and if a child is begot because of such a relationship, yes it does have a higher risk of birth defects, but it also has a greater risk of psychological issues as well, for it is growing up in an unhealthy environment.

I personally think it is best to avoid incest due to the psychological and biological risks involved. There is bound to be someone else out there one can love erotically. But then I define incest as between family members - the immediate family such as siblings and parents. To have a sexual relationship with immediate family members enters dangerous ground psychologically, especially if one wishes to stay mentally healthy. Such relationships have a very, very high risk for psychological damage, and I have yet to find any sort of information that proves that such a relationship can be healthy in any way. If anyone has any such information, I would like to read it.
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Jesus Was a Liberal

 
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