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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:08 pm
Anyone that knows me at all has probably heard about how much I hate debating abortion, and generally hate the people who debate abortion themselves, too (or at least, I like them significantly less while they're in the act of debating abortion).
Because let's face it: abortion debates usually just turn into pointless pissing matches and go in circles for ages, getting more and more vulgar the more circles it makes. Pro-lifers hate women and pro-choicers are baby killers.
So for this discussion, I honestly don't care where you stand in the abortion debate. I think we could all agree, however, that in a perfect world, there would be no need for abortion.
Which leads me to the topic of this thread. I'm beginning to find the entire abortion debate rather ridiculous all together, simply because abortion is only a symptom of a much bigger problem. Making abortion illegal won't stop abortion. That's a reality.
So what would stop abortion? Well, we first have to look at the problem that abortion is solving, which is unwanted pregnancy and/or unwated parenthood, though mostly the former, since the latter is solved easily enough through adoption.
So the obvious solution would be to stop unwanted pregnancy. But how? Does abstinence-only education really work, or in a comprehensive approach to sex and contraceptives for teenagers more effective?
Also, is the answer really attempting to stop pregnancy before it happens, or could we make pregnancy a more attractive option for women who find themselves in an uncomfortable situation? The fact is, women who are young, unmarried, still in school, eocnomically unstable, etc. are ostracised by most of "proper society" if they're seen with a kid in tow. Does this social stigma help to keep those who are "unprepared" from getting pregnant, or does it simply mean that a woman who has the potential to be a good mother and get a lot out of being a parent find abortion as a better solution to avoid the looks and whipsers she'll get if she carries the feotus to term?
So, what are your ideas? What kind of sex education do you think is the most effective? Do you think that social stigma plays a role in some women's desire to seek an abortion? What solutions can you come up with?
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:59 am
I think that one option is better sex education. I know that in the high school I used to attend, things like condoms and birth control pills weren't even mentioned, and that nobody got there 'till they were juniors (in grade 11) anyway, at which point it was probably too late. Parents need to talk to their kids about it earlier, and schools need to have a more neutral policy - because you know teenagers are going to have sex, and depending on what kind of parents they have, they might not know about that sort of thing, or the real information and statistics involved. "Just don't have sex" as a prevention to pregnancy at an early age clearly isn't working.
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:54 am
Violet_Abyss I think that one option is better sex education. I know that in the high school I used to attend, things like condoms and birth control pills weren't even mentioned, and that nobody got there 'till they were juniors (in grade 11) anyway, at which point it was probably too late. Parents need to talk to their kids about it earlier, and schools need to have a more neutral policy - because you know teenagers are going to have sex, and depending on what kind of parents they have, they might not know about that sort of thing, or the real information and statistics involved. "Just don't have sex" as a prevention to pregnancy at an early age clearly isn't working. I agree about the comprehensive sex education. But you also mentioned something that I left out of my first post that I think is important: Parents. I don't think all the responsibility for a child's sex education should fall to the schools. I think it's important that parents get involved in that aspect of their children's lives. Now, of course parents are going to talk to their kids about sex according to their own morals, but regardless of what those morals are, I think it's important that they make it clear to their kids that they can talk about sex and ask questions. I know I'm probably not the only one who never had even one "sex talk" with my parents, and since I attended a Catholic secondary school, any talk of sex beyond "don't do it" was out of the question. I was fortunate that prior to my first sexual experiences, I met some people who impressed upon me the importance of safer sex practises, but not everyone is so lucky. In fact, most people probably aren't. So yes, schools need to tell kids the facts about sex independent of any moral or religious bias, and parents also need to accept that they're not going to be able to control every aspect of their kids' lives and make sure that if they are going to have sex, they at least know how to keep themselves out of several very uncomfortable situations.
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:15 pm
SinfulGuillotine Violet_Abyss I think that one option is better sex education. I know that in the high school I used to attend, things like condoms and birth control pills weren't even mentioned, and that nobody got there 'till they were juniors (in grade 11) anyway, at which point it was probably too late. Parents need to talk to their kids about it earlier, and schools need to have a more neutral policy - because you know teenagers are going to have sex, and depending on what kind of parents they have, they might not know about that sort of thing, or the real information and statistics involved. "Just don't have sex" as a prevention to pregnancy at an early age clearly isn't working. I agree about the comprehensive sex education. But you also mentioned something that I left out of my first post that I think is important: Parents. I don't think all the responsibility for a child's sex education should fall to the schools. I think it's important that parents get involved in that aspect of their children's lives. Now, of course parents are going to talk to their kids about sex according to their own morals, but regardless of what those morals are, I think it's important that they make it clear to their kids that they can talk about sex and ask questions. I know I'm probably not the only one who never had even one "sex talk" with my parents, and since I attended a Catholic secondary school, any talk of sex beyond "don't do it" was out of the question. I was fortunate that prior to my first sexual experiences, I met some people who impressed upon me the importance of safer sex practises, but not everyone is so lucky. In fact, most people probably aren't. So yes, schools need to tell kids the facts about sex independent of any moral or religious bias, and parents also need to accept that they're not going to be able to control every aspect of their kids' lives and make sure that if they are going to have sex, they at least know how to keep themselves out of several very uncomfortable situations. Does getting handed a book entitled 'Where Babies Come From' at the age of six qualify as a 'talk'? That was the extent of my education. We have sex ed in high school, but I do not the quality as I was exempted. Apparently being ROTC means that one does not need knowledge about such subjects. xshrugsx The internet is my friend. In today's day and age, it is extraordinarily easy to get information on sex, and it is highly unlikely that a person with access to public school or the computer or the basic cable channels will not encounter sex. It is highly unrealistic of a parent to think their child will not, and when the child does, to think he or she will not be curious. To send a child in blind into such a situation, especially should the parent wish to impart morals (such as no sex or keep the baby) or wish for their child to remain healthy, is folly.
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:25 am
I was educated at school three times: At third grade, sixth and tenth... (At 11th we dealt with the more abtract things of the evolving egg)
My parents were feeling too akward for this, so they gave me a really good comic book about it. I was... Dunno, seven, eight?
Well, when I had my first boyfriend my mother said to me, I need to make a date at the gynaecologist (<- written right? I'm too lazy to look it up) for the pill... But I think I was educated well enough.
For example: The pill does not work if you had to thorw up or antibiotics stop it to work, condoms have actually to be wearded like in the desription...
I hope I will make it clearly enough to my children one day... Also the boys, because they're responsible too.
I think: It is totally correct, that abortion is the symptom... I once heard, abortion is a kind of contraception in Japan... I am not sure, if I should believe it or not, but nontheless it's shocking!
Just behaving a little bit responsible wouldn't bring the whole abortion debate up... Okay, Extremists would errect their fronts at contraception, but abortion simply wouldn't be needed, only in cases of medical needs, or rape, which is sad enough... evil
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:08 am
Cadiya I was educated at school three times: At third grade, sixth and tenth... (At 11th we dealt with the more abtract things of the evolving egg) My parents were feeling too akward for this, so they gave me a really good comic book about it. I was... Dunno, seven, eight? Well, when I had my first boyfriend my mother said to me, I need to make a date at the gynaecologist (<- written right? I'm too lazy to look it up) for the pill... But I think I was educated well enough. For example: The pill does not work if you had to thorw up or antibiotics stop it to work, condoms have actually to be wearded like in the desription... I hope I will make it clearly enough to my children one day... Also the boys, because they're responsible too. I think: It is totally correct, that abortion is the symptom... I once heard, abortion is a kind of contraception in Japan... I am not sure, if I should believe it or not, but nontheless it's shocking! Just behaving a little bit responsible wouldn't bring the whole abortion debate up... Okay, Extremists would errect their fronts at contraception, but abortion simply wouldn't be needed, only in cases of medical needs, or rape, which is sad enough... evil Or when the contraceptives fail, which does occur.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:34 am
Okay, I always forget about it, but this is because everyone I know where contraception failed was not very responsible with it.
"What? I have to take the pill regularly?" This girl is just a twice mother because she noticed her pregnancy when it was too late for abortion.
"And then we thought: Condoms are stupid, and after the first time we thought, now it's too late..."
stressed
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:40 pm
I just wrote a paper on this very topic and i'll agree more needs to be done too prevent such things from Happening. Its ridiculous but in the same since are we opening a window that should be shut?
The push to have sex is huge and giving kids ( yeah kids were talking 13-18 year olds) contraceptives might not be the best idea. confused The pressure is intense and I feel by giving these kids the tools to have sex may only going to make them more eager. Oh well… at least they’ll be safe.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:50 pm
Cadiya Okay, I always forget about it, but this is because everyone I know where contraception failed was not very responsible with it. "What? I have to take the pill regularly?" This girl is just a twice mother because she noticed her pregnancy when it was too late for abortion. "And then we thought: Condoms are stupid, and after the first time we thought, now it's too late..." stressed It's true that the majority of contraceptive failure is due to improper use, and that's why I believe that honest, practical sex education is very important. But even with people who are well-educated in the ways of contraceptive use, accidents happen. And then sometimes it just fails. Nothing is 100% effective, even if it's used completely correctly. I've had a condom break, and I'm the most obsessive person I've met when it comes to proper condom storage and usage (no joke; I'm sure it's downright annoying for anyone who dates me). So, point is, it happens, but it sure does happen a hell of a lot less if you're using it right.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:54 pm
the kinky boot beast I just wrote a paper on this very topic and i'll agree more needs to be done too prevent such things from Happening. Its ridiculous but in the same since are we opening a window that should be shut?
The push to have sex is huge and giving kids ( yeah kids were talking 13-18 year olds) contraceptives might not be the best idea. confused The pressure is intense and I feel by giving these kids the tools to have sex may only going to make them more eager. Oh well… at least they’ll be safe. I really don't that so. I think that plenty of them are already having sex, most of them are going to experiment at some time or another, and that in order for them to be safe they have to be properly educated, which they aren't, a huge portion of the time.
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:54 pm
the kinky boot beast I just wrote a paper on this very topic and i'll agree more needs to be done too prevent such things from Happening. Its ridiculous but in the same since are we opening a window that should be shut?
The push to have sex is huge and giving kids ( yeah kids were talking 13-18 year olds) contraceptives might not be the best idea. confused The pressure is intense and I feel by giving these kids the tools to have sex may only going to make them more eager. Oh well… at least they’ll be safe. The fact is, kids are going to have sex one way or the other. Either they can be educated and have the means to be safer when they do it, or they'll believe myths like girls can't get pregnant the first time they have sex and the HIV virus can fit through the pores in condoms, so why bother using them. (And yes, I've talked to people who believe both of those things). Speaking from experience, abstinence-only education didn't stop me from being sexually active as a teenager. At all.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:49 pm
SinfulGuillotine the kinky boot beast I just wrote a paper on this very topic and i'll agree more needs to be done too prevent such things from Happening. Its ridiculous but in the same since are we opening a window that should be shut?
The push to have sex is huge and giving kids ( yeah kids were talking 13-18 year olds) contraceptives might not be the best idea. confused The pressure is intense and I feel by giving these kids the tools to have sex may only going to make them more eager. Oh well… at least they’ll be safe. The fact is, kids are going to have sex one way or the other. Either they can be educated and have the means to be safer when they do it, or they'll believe myths like girls can't get pregnant the first time they have sex and the HIV virus can fit through the pores in condoms, so why bother using them. (And yes, I've talked to people who believe both of those things). Speaking from experience, abstinence-only education didn't stop me from being sexually active as a teenager. At all.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:05 pm
A WORD ABOUT ABSTINENCE
abstinence only programs are affecting teenagers in a negative way. A staggering 93% of teens admit to having sexual intercourse before graduating high school. Many of these students attended high schools with abstinence only programs in place, in fact, two out of three public high schools get federal funding, or ear marked tax dollars for abstinence only programs. . Often educators enter the realm of sexual education in the gray, not knowing how much they should explain to hormone driven teens. This compiled with the fact that parents do not wish their 15 year old son to know what intercourse is, or to be in the act of it, causes a bit of a pickle. So the government came to the rescue and told school boards to implement abstinence only programs. These programs are deceiving and are only 14 percent effective. They require students to make a promise to abstain from sexual activities. why use a program that is 86% ineffective? more often than not, tell students false information about sex and contraceptives.
All too often information provided by educators is false. Many of the sex ed. classes are taught by volunteers or teachers who are not qualified to instruct in the field of sexual education. This causes many of the classes to be filled with information that is misleading. After several hours of investigation I have concluded that many students are fed up with this falsity and are taking a stand. Many high school students and parents have posted petitions in city halls, work places, and of course the Internet(like here on Gaia.) Parents are flabbergasted at the supposed “facts” their children are being taught.
These “facts” range from the effectiveness of condoms; to wide spread wives tales about intercourse and misconceptions about the proper way one can become pregnant. When educators are telling America ’s youth lies about sex to make them abstain, something is wrong!
Also, in abstinent only programs, teachers will not inform students about contraceptives. Things like spermicides, sponges, diaphragms, contraceptive patches, insert able rings, The Implant, Inject able Hormonal Contraceptives (Depo-Provera) and the emergency contraceptive pill,(morning after pill), are virtually unknown to the common teen. I took a poll of the freshmen at my school and was in awe of how little they truley did know. these kid who are ready to have sex dont even know what the word contraceptive is. I dono if its beacuse I lived in the city or what but I knew about these thing when I was in the 5th grade. there is almost no sex ed program in my school, but as in other schools I attened we had to take a sex ed class every year. Because abstinence only programs are federally funded most schools it has come down to the decision that it is abstinence only or nothing.
In addition to not knowing what contraceptives are, many adolescence do not know how to obtain them. While some are readily accessible such as condoms others like the implant is only available in Ireland . It is called IMPLANON. With out knowledge of how to acquire proper contraceptives the rate of sexually transmitted infections and pregnancy among teens will only continue to increase.
Another underlying fault of abstinence only programs, is the reality of teens being so uninformed about contraceptives. They don't know what the are, don't know how to get them, and more importantly they don't know how to use them. Really what is the point of having contraceptive pills or condoms if you don't know how to use them. If teens don't know how to use contraceptives how are they going to prevent pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.
When teens are given theses valuable tools to encourage healthier sex practices they are just expected to know how to use them correctly, but all to often they don't. Manufacturers know if a product is used incorrectly the effectiveness of the product will decrease. Take condoms for example, if used correctly they are said to be 97% effective against S.T.D.s and unwanted pregnancy's, but if so much a small hole, tear or misplacement can cause the condom to decreases it value of effectiveness to as little as 50%. If birth control is not taken every day the hormones are not evenly spread and will not prevent pregnancy at 92% effectiveness rate. We all must face the fact that high schools across the country are not doing enough to ensure the sexual health of teens. These young adults need to know their choices so they can make the right decisions. Abstinence only programs are not giving teens theses choices.
Abstinence only programs are teaching Americas teens that not only is sex wrong but it's also not safe; that you'll get horrible infections or get pregnant no matter what you do. Wrong! lets encourage the next generation of people, that if there going to do “it”, do it right. Right now the USA has the power in it's hands to save the next generation form so much harm. The USA has the funds and people power to make comprehensive sexual education happen. So lets make sure that teen are safe and give them the tools needed to succeed.
TEENS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP HAVING SEX! Given the tools they need they can be smarter and avoid huge traps presented by sex, simply by utilizing things like contraceptives. They can be smarter if we as a public will give them a chance.
but we have to remember all this has to be done at the right time
so now the question becomes when is the right time
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:40 pm
the kinky boot beast SinfulGuillotine the kinky boot beast I just wrote a paper on this very topic and i'll agree more needs to be done too prevent such things from Happening. Its ridiculous but in the same since are we opening a window that should be shut?
The push to have sex is huge and giving kids ( yeah kids were talking 13-18 year olds) contraceptives might not be the best idea. confused The pressure is intense and I feel by giving these kids the tools to have sex may only going to make them more eager. Oh well… at least they’ll be safe. The fact is, kids are going to have sex one way or the other. Either they can be educated and have the means to be safer when they do it, or they'll believe myths like girls can't get pregnant the first time they have sex and the HIV virus can fit through the pores in condoms, so why bother using them. (And yes, I've talked to people who believe both of those things). Speaking from experience, abstinence-only education didn't stop me from being sexually active as a teenager. At all. I disagree that giving young people the means for safer sex means that they're going to go out and do it. I have a friend who will be 18 in a few months. She's been on the pill for about a year, she opened an account at Planned Parenthood, and she has a stash of condoms in her desk drawer. She's a virgin. Not because she's ugly or hasn't had the opportunity to have sex, but because, as she put it, "I haven't found anyone who's good-looking enough for a one-night stand or who's interesting enough to make the emotional crap worth it." So why all the precautions for sex? Because she's well-versed in the realities of sex, and in safer sex practises. She wants to have that safety net for if and when her situation changes. The fact that she as a birth control perscription and an assortment of condoms in her pocession, however, has hardly made her any more eager to have sex just because her odds of getting pregnant are significantly reduced. I also think that allowing teenagers to have access to these things means that they need to know everything about them. And it should be stressed that no means of protection is 100% effective. It's not a matter of "here, have a condom, now you're safe!" They need to know all the facts, which includes the facts that people can get pregnant on the pill and people can contract STDs even if they use a condom. They need to be taught how to make smart sexual choices, not just given tools and told to go run with it. I strongly believe that parents should be involved in this, too, but parents have proven to be...unreliable, in many cases.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:47 am
Argh! I wrote quite a bunch, but somehow the format screwed up... *sigh* so let's restrict to the part not eaten by my computer: As far as I can see this is a nice peace of work... the kinky boot beast
While some are readily accessible such as condoms others like the implant is only available in Ireland . It is called IMPLANON. Dunno the name here, but it's also available in Germany... And I think in other European countries also...
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