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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:20 pm
(If you don't want to see Watchmen Spoilers, go to the second Paragraph)
When Watchmen, by Alan Moore, and Dave Gibbins, came out in the late 80’s we were forced to re-think our ideas about superheroes. Many of the questions about the nature of Vigilantism and the motives of Superheroes that we (comic book nerds) take for granted, were first introduced in this amazing Graphic Novel. The body of the novel is set in the US, in a near future, on the brink of Nuclear War, around a group of masked vigilantes (only one of whom has “super” powers) who are, in a word, flawed. The most well liked of this group, sets in motion a plan to “save the world” and by using some of the most talented and creative people in the word, he creates a false organism, a fake “alien” – which he then sends to New York, whereupon arrival it explodes killing over half the population. Because of this “threat” the world previously on the brink of destroying itself, unites against this perceived invasion, thus avoiding Nuclear War.
Of course, those few who know are horrified – but he did save the world, and throughout the novel was driven by a genuine desire to do so. Do the ends justify the means? How far is it ethical to go in order to save people? In the United States we are currently faces with similar questions. Some of the rights that have been taken away, some of the measures taken in order to “protect” America from terrorists are astounding. So, what do you think? Justified? Or going too far?
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:47 pm
Well, I don't honestly know the specifics of what's been going on in the States besides the clips of Bill Maher that my friend sends me from time to time ("I e-mail myself a copy of the Consitution every day in the hopes that someone will be tapping my e-mail and actually read what it says!"), but it is a tricky question. I would say that when it comes to taking away people's rights...well, honestly, I can't really justify that in my mind in any situation. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes along the lines of "He who would give up his liberties for safety deserves neither." I probably butchered that, but I'm inclined to agree with the idea. It also seems like it's really more of a psychological game the government is playing than anything else. Keep the people in a state of fear and they're easier to control. That's a tactic that's been used many, many times. When people believe that there's a threat and that their government can protect from that threat, they're more likely to put complete trust in their government. Although, based on Bush's approval ratings last I heard, it's not working as well as some perhaps hoped it would.
The example from the comic that you used was an interesting one. In a case like that, I think it really comes down to which is the lesser of two evils. Is killing some innocent people worth it to save the lives of many more? I'm really not sure, and at this point, I'm pretty much just rambling. I just hope I'm never in a position of power where I would ever have to make decisions like this.
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:33 pm
SinfulGuillotine Well, I don't honestly know the specifics of what's been going on in the States besides the clips of Bill Maher that my friend sends me from time to time ("I e-mail myself a copy of the Consitution every day in the hopes that someone will be tapping my e-mail and actually read what it says!"), but it is a tricky question. I would say that when it comes to taking away people's rights...well, honestly, I can't really justify that in my mind in any situation. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes along the lines of "He who would give up his liberties for safety deserves neither." I probably butchered that, but I'm inclined to agree with the idea. It also seems like it's really more of a psychological game the government is playing than anything else. Keep the people in a state of fear and they're easier to control. That's a tactic that's been used many, many times. When people believe that there's a threat and that their government can protect from that threat, they're more likely to put complete trust in their government. Although, based on Bush's approval ratings last I heard, it's not working as well as some perhaps hoped it would. The example from the comic that you used was an interesting one. In a case like that, I think it really comes down to which is the lesser of two evils. Is killing some innocent people worth it to save the lives of many more? I'm really not sure, and at this point, I'm pretty much just rambling. I just hope I'm never in a position of power where I would ever have to make decisions like this. Isn't it interesting? You should read it, it's good. Anyway, I think I would be more able to support what he did if I thought that it would be a long term issue. But how long would it take them to figure out that no aliens were coming? Not long, I would think. I also agree with you about civil liberties.
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:47 am
That comic really sounds interesting, maybe I should introduce some friends of mine to it or first ask them if they know it...
Well, who never wanted to bang some heads together just to put some sense into people? This is just a extreme variant of it. Nontheless it is wrong.
If we weaken our moral standards too much one day it will sound reasonable to kill our neighbour, because he has the bigger car... neutral This is still killing people - to be precise it is mass slaughter! It has nothing to do with self defense, for example, if I am sitting in the bus and think, oh, this guy looks nasty, he could rob me, and then hit him, what would it be? Argh, dunno the legal term in English, but it would be a crime, not selfdefense!
If there is really one day, when mankind, nations, religions will kill each other... This would be a sad day, but nontheless, killing people is wrong. If we cannot talk others into sense, why would violence help?
This violent act in the comic didn't bring the people to sense. It just brought them fear. When they think that the Aliens are no longer a risk, the will start to kill again.
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 1:43 pm
Cadiya That comic really sounds interesting, maybe I should introduce some friends of mine to it or first ask them if they know it... Well, who never wanted to bang some heads together just to put some sense into people? This is just a extreme variant of it. Nontheless it is wrong. If we weaken our moral standards too much one day it will sound reasonable to kill our neighbour, because he has the bigger car... neutral This is still killing people - to be precise it is mass slaughter! It has nothing to do with self defense, for example, if I am sitting in the bus and think, oh, this guy looks nasty, he could rob me, and then hit him, what would it be? Argh, dunno the legal term in English, but it would be a crime, not selfdefense! If there is really one day, when mankind, nations, religions will kill each other... This would be a sad day, but nontheless, killing people is wrong. If we cannot talk others into sense, why would violence help? This violent act in the comic didn't bring the people to sense. It just brought them fear. When they think that the Aliens are no longer a risk, the will start to kill again. So, you would say that it is better for everyone to die in a senseless war, than to have people brought together by fear?
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:13 am
Somehow... Yes... If we cannot manage the situation in a civilised way, then it should be our fate... confused
I do not want to take the responsibility for the death of innocent people or kill them by myself, when there are other ways...
Yes, it is almost impossible to talk some sense into political hardliners, but we have the gifts of speech an logic, so we should use them insted our dark gifts of killing.
There is this somewhat naive saying: Just imagine there would be war and no one would come... (I only know the German version, is it by John Lennon out of "Imagine"?) Very, very naive, but nontheless true. Gandhi had great success with his peaceful way, and Jesus, well, we all know what happened.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:21 am
Violet_Abyss (If you don't want to see Watchmen Spoilers, go to the second Paragraph) When Watchmen, by Alan Moore, and Dave Gibbins, came out in the late 80’s we were forced to re-think our ideas about superheroes. Many of the questions about the nature of Vigilantism and the motives of Superheroes that we (comic book nerds) take for granted, were first introduced in this amazing Graphic Novel. The body of the novel is set in the US, in a near future, on the brink of Nuclear War, around a group of masked vigilantes (only one of whom has “super” powers) who are, in a word, flawed. The most well liked of this group, sets in motion a plan to “save the world” and by using some of the most talented and creative people in the word, he creates a false organism, a fake “alien” – which he then sends to New York, whereupon arrival it explodes killing over half the population. Because of this “threat” the world previously on the brink of destroying itself, unites against this perceived invasion, thus avoiding Nuclear War. Of course, those few who know are horrified – but he did save the world, and throughout the novel was driven by a genuine desire to do so. Do the ends justify the means? How far is it ethical to go in order to save people? In the United States we are currently faces with similar questions. Some of the rights that have been taken away, some of the measures taken in order to “protect” America from terrorists are astounding. So, what do you think? Justified? Or going too far? "Give me liberty, or give me death." At the point in which the government's efforts to protect the populous infringes upon the populous's rights, the government has become the threat. "Who will guard the guards?" If the government is allowed to spy on the populous, filter the populous's speech and press, and imprison without due process, the government is an unchecked power with frightening power. Notice how Russia is throwing a fuss at the US putting up the little doo-hinkies that can shoot down missiles in Europe? It is because we are a super power. Should we place this device in Europe, we tilt the balance of power. We would have too much power. Should the government be allowed to remove from us our rights, the same event occurs on the home front. The balance of powers shifts. ... ... ... I sounded semi-intelligent before the 'doo-hinkie' thing didn't I? sweatdrop Yeah...I know little of offensive/defensive weapons. This little does not extend to their names. Wow...I sound sort of passionate/fanatical...I'm not really. I just was writing a fanfic while I wrote this. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:45 pm
Does the end justify the means? As long as it's just a small lie because you're planning a surprise birthday party and don't want the guy to know...
What we're talking about here opens up the way for unbelievable horrors. Maybe there are noble intentions behind the actions of the heroes in the graphic novel, but if I got you right, nobody tells us what comes after. What happens when another thread occurs? Will they again commit mass slaughter and sacrifice millions of lifes? And after that? How many lifes are too many? 10 million? 100 million? 1 billion?
Should anybody in this world have the power to decide who is worthy to survive and who has to be sacrificed?
Should anybody in this world decide if mankind has to die all at once or bit by bit?
Sorry, but in my opinion this comic suggests a nightmare.
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:43 pm
Cadiya Somehow... Yes... If we cannot manage the situation in a civilised way, then it should be our fate... confused I do not want to take the responsibility for the death of innocent people or kill them by myself, when there are other ways... Yes, it is almost impossible to talk some sense into political hardliners, but we have the gifts of speech an logic, so we should use them insted our dark gifts of killing. There is this somewhat naive saying: Just imagine there would be war and no one would come... (I only know the German version, is it by John Lennon out of "Imagine"?) Very, very naive, but nontheless true. Gandhi had great success with his peaceful way, and Jesus, well, we all know what happened. I agree with you entirely, but somehow that wasn't an answer that I expected.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:42 am
I am glad, that you share my opinion, but that wasn't what you expected? I am curious. Why?
Was it because of the formulations of my prevoius post? It sometimes depends very strong on my mood how I express something, sometimes a little bit reluctand, sometimes blatant...
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Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:36 pm
Cadiya I am glad, that you share my opinion, but that wasn't what you expected? I am curious. Why? Was it because of the formulations of my prevoius post? It sometimes depends very strong on my mood how I express something, sometimes a little bit reluctand, sometimes blatant... Hmm, it's like, every other time I've discussed this issue with people they are very torn on the issue. They think that nuclear war is bad, and think they you should do anything to prevent it, but they also think that what he did was bad. You however, had a very clear, concise idea about it, which I admire. I can never make up my mind about anything.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:26 pm
SinfulGuillotine Well, I don't honestly know the specifics of what's been going on in the States besides the clips of Bill Maher that my friend sends me from time to time ("I e-mail myself a copy of the Consitution every day in the hopes that someone will be tapping my e-mail and actually read what it says!"), but it is a tricky question. I would say that when it comes to taking away people's rights...well, honestly, I can't really justify that in my mind in any situation. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes along the lines of "He who would give up his liberties for safety deserves neither." I probably butchered that, but I'm inclined to agree with the idea. It also seems like it's really more of a psychological game the government is playing than anything else. Keep the people in a state of fear and they're easier to control. That's a tactic that's been used many, many times. When people believe that there's a threat and that their government can protect from that threat, they're more likely to put complete trust in their government. Although, based on Bush's approval ratings last I heard, it's not working as well as some perhaps hoped it would. The example from the comic that you used was an interesting one. In a case like that, I think it really comes down to which is the lesser of two evils. Is killing some innocent people worth it to save the lives of many more? I'm really not sure, and at this point, I'm pretty much just rambling. I just hope I'm never in a position of power where I would ever have to make decisions like this.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:52 am
Violet_Abyss Hmm, it's like, every other time I've discussed this issue with people they are very torn on the issue. They think that nuclear war is bad, and think they you should do anything to prevent it, but they also think that what he did was bad. You however, had a very clear, concise idea about it, which I admire. I can never make up my mind about anything. Thanks! ^_^ I am also undecided very often, but mostly I help myself by asking: Would you be willing to do this? Or: What do your principles say? And when nothing helps: How am I feeling... This let me stay undecided often enough, but in this point it helped. I wish I could sort other issues out so easyly... sweatdrop
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