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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:07 pm
(I stole this from a thread I started in another guild, because I think it's a fascinating topic to discuss on a spiritual level. So apologies to Nemi and anyone else from On This Rock who have already seen this.)
Gender Dysphoria is a condition in which a person feels that their gender doesn't match up with their sex. People with this condition are more commonly referred to as transgender or transsexual.
To Clear Up Possible Confusion:
-Gender is not the same as sex. Gender is how you feel emotionally and intellectually, while sex is what reproductive organs you have. For most people, gender and sex match up; a person with a p***s feels like a man and a person with a v****a feels like a woman. However, with Gender Dysphoria, a person feels that their gender is the opposite of their sex.
-Someone who is transgendered feels that their sex and their gender are opposites, but does not desire sex reassignment surgery (a sex change). They may choose to dress/appear/live as a member of their birth sex, or they may choose to wear the clothing of and behave like what they feel their true gender is. A transsexual is specifically someone who desires sex reassignment surgery and believes that such a procedure is the only way for them to ultimately lead a normal life. Some say that transsexuality is a more "severe" example of Gender Dysphoria, while transgenderism is more mild and less dibilitating in everyday life.
-Those with Gender Dysphoria are not just cross-dressers or transvestites. Transvestites, by definition, have no desire to live as a member of the opposite sex and often their cross-dressing is linked to sexual satisfaction.
-Those with Gender Dysphoria are not homosexuals wishing to escape the social stigma of being involved in a same-sex relationship. Transgenders/transsexuals can be of any sexuality.
-Hormone treatments are often used by those wishing to become the opposite sex. The rule of thumb with hormones is that they can give you some of the desired traits of the opposite sex, but they cannot take away anything that you already anatomically have. For example, a male taking estrogen injections will grow breasts and experience a redistribution of body fat, giving the appearance of a more feminine figure, but estrogen will not make the p***s or testes shrink or disappear, will not make their voice higher, and will not take away body and facial hair. A female taking testosterone injections will not lose their breasts, but will grow body and facial hair, experience a deepening of the voice, and a redistribution of body fat.
-The process of changing sex hormonally and surgically is usually referred to as "transitioning." A female wishing to become male is usually called "Female to Male," or FtM, and a male wishing to become female is usually called "Male to Female," or MtF.
(Not sure if this is all painfully obvious or not, but I thought I'd clear up some common misperceptions just in case. If I left anything out, or if anything is confusing, feel free to ask me. I'm not exactly an expert, but I have a friend who is transgendered, and she inspired me to do a little reasearch. I have links, too, with more information if anyone wants them.)
Now, that's all very interesting, I'm sure, but what I really want to discuss is the idea of Gender Dysphoria on a spiritual level. Some Christians say that you must live as your birth sex and you must make your gender match your sex and anything else is sinful. Others say that those with Gender Dysphoria may dress and act as members of the opposite sex, but to surigcally or hormonally change themselves would be going against the way God made them. Still others say that seeking sex reassignment surgery is no different from seeking treatment for any other serious mental disorder.
Spork-fed Discussion:
-So, what are your feelings regarding Gender Dysphoria?
-Do you feel that to physically change your sex is sinful?
- Is living as a member of the opposite sex without physically changing yourself sinful?
-How would you react if you had a Christian friend who came to you and confided that they were considering a sex reassignment procedure?
-What defines "man" what what defines "woman"? Is it what's between your legs, or is it something more?
-Any other thoughts, feelings, questions, or corrections if any of my information is wrong.
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:57 am
No need to apologise; I don't feel as though I need to hold back from completely vilifying what I assume the average Catholic's opinions to be. ^^
I don't actually think transness is directly addressed in Sacred Scripture (no "and thou shall not lop off thy p***s and wear dresses" - although the Catholic clergy are halfway there), although there are bits written about eunuchs, which, I suppose, arn't too far from someone living outside the gender role everyone else wants to force on them. I also think (because I don't definatly know) they were a group excluded from covenent worship, because the Jews were well into their machoness and procreation. But then there's that bit in Iasiah (56:1, 3-5):
Thus saith the Lord: Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my justice to be revealed...And let not the eunuch say: Behold I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord to the eunuchs, They that shall keep my sabbaths, and shall choose the things that please me, and shall hold fast my covenant: I will give to them in my house, and within my walls, a place, and a name better than sons and daughters: I will give them an everlasting name which shall never perish.
So, basically, when Jesus+ comes, being 'gender confused' is ok. Which is perhaps also said in St. Paul's letters (Galatians 3:28.):
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus+.
But then again, St. Paul also has pretty tight regulations on women veiling themselves in church and having their hair cut off if they didn't (but I'm sure there's a lingistical way of getting around hair coverings).
But the issue is definatly resolved in Acts, where Philip baptises a eunuch, thus destroying the Jewish view of exclusion (Acts 8:35-38.).
But then, as usual, as any fringe group starts to gain voice against common morality, Jesus+ said, "he who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who loses his life for My Sake will find it", so we have the duty of not donning false beards and plus-size stilettos. Yet, if we all listened to Jesus+ in this way, we would have no recreation, no art, no poetry, no language - nothing. Nothing which is often heralded as being a human offering to the glory of God. But I'm too hungry to mess up my head with that one right now.
And that's all I'm prepared to dig up on an empty stomach.
On a personal level, I think Jesus+ would be pretty happy if people stopped trying to obey everyone else's rules and accepted themselves as God had made them; transgenderism is not an act of vanity and it is not a way of seeking attention - nor is it a selfish act of expression. It's just being who you are and not lying to yourself for the sake of others - the amount of pain caused by the selfish and unloving opinions of others is not worth the pathetic feeling of false acceptance you get by forcing yourself into clothes that accentuate the lie you're living. I completely agree with a statement made in Whosoever (magazine): "If Gender Dysphoria keeps one from being who they truly are and fitting into the reality around them, then it keeps them from serving God to the best of their ability". The author adds to this by claiming it to be not a right, but a responsiblity to change one's body - if need be.
((I hate the phrase 'gender confused', because of its negetive implications. And the reality that it's only those who label people in this way who are in confusion about gender. 'Gender dysphoria' is ok (because it sounds better), but - I'm really sorry Enjy - it doesn't, by definition, address the issue on neutral terms. The phrase in itself suggests transgendered people to be upset at themselves, which isn't necessarily true. But don't change it - it sounds posh. ^^))
((And I'm sorry for the rant - it's something I feel quite a passion about.))
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:07 pm
Nemithena ^I don't actually think transness is directly addressed in Sacred Scripture (no "and thou shall not lop off thy p***s and wear dresses" - although the Catholic clergy are halfway there) I was having such a horrible day, but you just made it all better by making me spew snot out of my nose from laughter. Thank you. Quote: although there are bits written about eunuchs, which, I suppose, arn't too far from someone living outside the gender role everyone else wants to force on them. I also think (because I don't definatly know) they were a group excluded from covenent worship, because the Jews were well into their machoness and procreation. But then there's that bit in Iasiah (56:1, 3-5): Thus saith the Lord: Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my justice to be revealed...And let not the eunuch say: Behold I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord to the eunuchs, They that shall keep my sabbaths, and shall choose the things that please me, and shall hold fast my covenant: I will give to them in my house, and within my walls, a place, and a name better than sons and daughters: I will give them an everlasting name which shall never perish.So, basically, when Jesus+ comes, being 'gender confused' is ok. Which is perhaps also said in St. Paul's letters (Galatians 3:28.): There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus+. But then again, St. Paul also has pretty tight regulations on women veiling themselves in church and having their hair cut off if they didn't (but I'm sure there's a lingistical way of getting around hair coverings). But the issue is definatly resolved in Acts, where Philip baptises a eunuch, thus destroying the Jewish view of exclusion (Acts 8:35-38.). Yeah, one reason why religious discussions on something like transgenderism are so fuzzy is because...well, sex changes weren't exactly so common 2000 years ago. It's not like murder or adultery where the rules are clear-cut. But that's an interesting point about the eunuchs. I'd never made that connection before. Though admittedly, a eunuch could still be very male in terms of gender (since gender is mental and not physical), but you make a good point that it's probably the closest thing to gender-bending mentioned in the Bible. Quote: But then, as usual, as any fringe group starts to gain voice against common morality, Jesus+ said, "he who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who loses his life for My Sake will find it", so we have the duty of not donning false beards and plus-size stilettos. Yet, if we all listened to Jesus+ in this way, we would have no recreation, no art, no poetry, no language - nothing. Nothing which is often heralded as being a human offering to the glory of God. But I'm too hungry to mess up my head with that one right now. Yeah...I think it's the sort of thing where you just have to exercise good judgement and choose your rebellious battles...at least, that's always how I've seen it. Quote: And that's all I'm prepared to dig up on an empty stomach. On a personal level, I think Jesus+ would be pretty happy if people stopped trying to obey everyone else's rules and accepted themselves as God had made them; transgenderism is not an act of vanity and it is not a way of seeking attention - nor is it a selfish act of expression. It's just being who you are and not lying to yourself for the sake of others - the amount of pain caused by the selfish and unloving opinions of others is not worth the pathetic feeling of false acceptance you get by forcing yourself into clothes that accentuate the lie you're living. I completely agree with a statement made in Whosoever (magazine): "If Gender Dysphoria keeps one from being who they truly are and fitting into the reality around them, then it keeps them from serving God to the best of their ability". The author adds to this by claiming it to be not a right, but a responsiblity to change one's body - if need be. I <3 Whosoever. And yes, I completely agree. If one is denying something that's an intrinsic part of themself simply because of how those around them may react, then they're not serving God; they're serving society. Quote: ((I hate the phrase 'gender confused', because of its negetive implications. And the reality that it's only those who label people in this way who are in confusion about gender. 'Gender dysphoria' is ok (because it sounds better), but - I'm really sorry Enjy - it doesn't, by definition, address the issue on neutral terms. The phrase in itself suggests transgendered people to be upset at themselves, which isn't necessarily true. But don't change it - it sounds posh. ^^)) Yeah, I know. I kind of have a problem with it too, but I figure it's probably the least negative term, since it's clinical. But I know what you mean. If it makes you feel any better, Gender Dysphoria is not actually classified as a mental disorder unless it interferes significantly with someone's emotional health. Otherwise it's just a....thing, I guess. ("Thing" is also a clinical term, I'm sure. rolleyes ) Quote: ((And I'm sorry for the rant - it's something I feel quite a passion about.)) No need to apologise.
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:10 am
SinfulGuillotine To Clear Up Possible Confusion: - Gender is not the same as sex. Gender is how you feel emotionally and intellectually, while sex is what reproductive organs you have. For most people, gender and sex match up; a person with a p***s feels like a man and a person with a v****a feels like a woman. However, with Gender Dysphoria, a person feels that their gender is the opposite of their sex. Too sad that in German there is no difference between the two words... This makes the discussion of this point sometimes a little bit strange... Quote: -Someone who is transgendered feels that their sex and their gender are opposites, but does not desire sex reassignment surgery (a sex change). They may choose to dress/appear/live as a member of their birth sex, or they may choose to wear the clothing of and behave like what they feel their true gender is. A transsexual is specifically someone who desires sex reassignment surgery and believes that such a procedure is the only way for them to ultimately lead a normal life. Some say that transsexuality is a more "severe" example of Gender Dysphoria, while transgenderism is more mild and less dibilitating in everyday life. Good to know. Otherwise I would have used the terms the other way round... sweatdrop Quote: -Hormone treatments are often used by those wishing to become the opposite sex. The rule of thumb with hormones is that they can give you some of the desired traits of the opposite sex, but they cannot take away anything that you already anatomically have. For example, a male taking estrogen injections will grow breasts and experience a redistribution of body fat, giving the appearance of a more feminine figure, but estrogen will not make the p***s or testes shrink or disappear, will not make their voice higher, and will not take away body and facial hair. A female taking testosterone injections will not lose their breasts, but will grow body and facial hair, experience a deepening of the voice, and a redistribution of body fat. This is in my opinion the hardest parts in changing sexuality besides all the other hard parts, because this will change you most in some way, it directly goes into your brain... When I think, that hormones I somehow already have makes me depressed sometimes, how should a man/woman feel when changing? sad Quote: -The process of changing sex hormonally and surgically is usually referred to as "transitioning." A female wishing to become male is usually called "Female to Male," or FtM, and a male wishing to become female is usually called "Male to Female," or MtF. (Not sure if this is all painfully obvious or not, but I thought I'd clear up some common misperceptions just in case. If I left anything out, or if anything is confusing, feel free to ask me. I'm not exactly an expert, but I have a friend who is transgendered, and she inspired me to do a little reasearch. I have links, too, with more information if anyone wants them.) At least for non Native speakers this is very good. Quote: Now, that's all very interesting, I'm sure, but what I really want to discuss is the idea of Gender Dysphoria on a spiritual level. Some Christians say that you must live as your birth sex and you must make your gender match your sex and anything else is sinful. Others say that those with Gender Dysphoria may dress and act as members of the opposite sex, but to surigcally or hormonally change themselves would be going against the way God made them. Still others say that seeking sex reassignment surgery is no different from seeking treatment for any other serious mental disorder. : -So, what are your feelings regarding Gender Dysphoria? Awkward, because I cannot imagine this. Sad, because these people suffer. They also suffer, when their wish is fulfilled/fullfilling... Quote: -Do you feel that to physically change your sex is sinful? According to that what I wrote to plastic surgery, yes. But no... I cannot think of it as being a sin, although my own definitions somehow say it. Quote: - Is living as a member of the opposite sex without physically changing yourself sinful? No. I have my problems with male transvetites, because they are so much better and styling (mostly) and have far more beautiful legs (mostly), but thats plain envy. xd Quote: -How would you react if you had a Christian friend who came to you and confided that they were considering a sex reassignment procedure? I would react as if he/she wouldn't be Christian. Religion would come at last to my mind. God is forgiveful, so I would mind the more current problems, like family, society, health... Quote: -What defines "man" what what defines "woman"? Is it what's between your legs, or is it something more? I could not put it into words, but it is something more... Woman can be aggressive like man, so behaviour is also not a good way to define it... Sorry, cannot help. Quote: -Any other thoughts, feelings, questions, or corrections if any of my information is wrong. I envy Nemithena for her patience of listing all these bits of the Bible... Rgarding gender confused: Especially today you can grow confused so fast about gender, so this term has its eligibility... True, it still throws a bad light on the people who suffer it (It sounds like an illness, but they suffer, I have no better words for it). These people are literally going through hell for their goal, you cannot say, oww, this is just a phase, or, oww, to bad, but God made you, so stay this way... I mean: We all have to progress. It is our mission, till we die: To fill our life with sense, so that our souls can grow. We start when we're born and then we change, every day, also our outside by growing (older). God didn't want us static, otherwise he would have made us perfect.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:05 am
SinfulGuillotine -So, what are your feelings regarding Gender Dysphoria? Wow. I don't know how to answer this...I have nothing against transgendered peoples. I feel bad that they suffer through social/religious stigma and may never feel 'right' due to lack of financial means. Quote: -Do you feel that to physically change your sex is sinful? Nope. Quote: - Is living as a member of the opposite sex without physically changing yourself sinful? I see a clear line between gender and sex...and I see no reason as to why we should be bound by our initial anatomy/biology. So no. Quote: -How would you react if you had a Christian friend who came to you and confided that they were considering a sex reassignment procedure? I'd ask how much and when. I could donate some. I'd ask this after assuring they had had the required (or more) time of counseling and that they new all of the legalities involved. Quote: -What defines "man" what what defines "woman"? Is it what's between your legs, or is it something more? Both. A man is someone with an XY chromosome. A female, XX. However, gender-wise, it is more. I''m not sure gender exists as anything more than society's imposed ideas............ I dunno. Quote: -Any other thoughts, feelings, questions, or corrections if any of my information is wrong. AI R BAAK. (I am back.) AI WEN AWAYE (I went away.) N NOW AI R BACK (And now I am back.)
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:30 pm
Since this is a guild that fancies Darwin and Jesus, i'll start an approach by evolutionary and spiritual matters. whee
My personal opinion is that God invented evolution. I don't know why he did it, but maybe he just likes self-developing systems.
Evolution works through mutation and selection (please correct me if I get some terms wrong), using mutation to create new posibilities for it's life forms and selecting those mutations that give the certain species an evolutionary advantage. (I know this is obvious, but I think the following thoughts are a bit weird so it could be easier if I sum this up.)
Now get the thought that Gender Dysphoria is just a mutation occurring in a self-developing system. The problem is that humans are sentient beings and able to choose what they want to be which brings me now a bit into trouble. On the one hand mutation is wanted by god because he invented evolution, then it would be sin to change your sex. On the other hand this mutation does not necessarily give you an evolutionary advantage, so nature might "choose" to discard it. Wouldn't it then lie in the hands of that very person to decide if the mutation is an advantage or disadvantage? And if it's a disadvantage shouldn't he/she have the right to act by the free will and change the situation by all means that seem to be necessary? I can't think those people are sinners just because they want to improve/change their "confused" situation.
I know this whole "mutation thing" is somewhat weird, crude and maybe even totally wrong, but it helped me to point out to you (and to myself) that it's not on us to judge if something as complicated as nature is a sin or not. I must admit that I'm happy to give this into the hands of God. mrgreen
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:37 am
Cadiya Too sad that in German there is no difference between the two words... This makes the discussion of this point sometimes a little bit strange...
((I keep a diary in very bad German, to practise my writing, and I had to resort to really bizarre grammatical structures, because I couldn't find a translate of either word...))
And the ideas weren't particularly great so as to ramble here, but perhaps I will rant when I'm bored.
editz: is this correct?
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:19 am
Nemithena Cadiya Too sad that in German there is no difference between the two words... This makes the discussion of this point sometimes a little bit strange...
((I keep a diary in very bad German, to practise my writing, and I had to resort to really bizarre grammatical structures, because I couldn't find a translate of either word...))
And the ideas weren't particularly great so as to ramble here, but perhaps I will rant when I'm bored.
editz: is this correct?Uh, your link is correct, but only in scientific approach, in common language this is never used. There it is transsexual. But I refered to gender/sex, which is in German both "Geschlecht". Well, sex is used for sexual intercourse also. I read some discussion about making a new term which defines the psychological gender (this was the right one, wasn't it?), but in common language it is not used... As online dictionary I can recommend leo.org biggrin
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:09 pm
Aw..it's got lions!
whee
What you've said makes it make a lot of sense, so thanks!
I looked up gender in my Oxford, and I got "Geschlecht", but I couldn't find trans- sexual or gendered. So...yeah. Oxford Press has let me down.
A new word would be helpful! Especially as recently gender and sex are seen as much more seperate than they used to.
On a random note, it was a German who first created words for sexual preferences. He was mint. And transgendered, as it happens.
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:20 am
Err, what does mint mean in this case? sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:04 pm
Cadiya Err, what does mint mean in this case? sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:30 am
Ah! Something learned! mrgreen
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