|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:24 am
 .so you know how much I need you.
So... I was never a stellar example of a Christian, and that honestly didn't bother me. But now I feel like I'm sort of leaning towards the agnostic side of things. The main reason for this is... my mythology class at school. I was always a big fan of mythology, and so I really wanted to take the course. And I still love it, but it's making me wonder how exactly we can tell which religion is true. Religions are often closely related to myths, and I've been learning and discovering that many/all myths from certain geographic locations are all similar. There are creation stories, destruction stories, flood stories, hero stories, etc... So many are alike and have similar storylines and patterns. If I had no religious background at all, I'd be extremely confused about what to believe.
I realise there is room for the stealing of ideas from myth to myth, region to region. The commonalities must have some basis in truth or they wouldn't be common themes. I mean, it's simply too coincidental to have three or more stories of a flood and a sort of re-creation of the world. So in my mind, it's almost impossible to say "Oh, I believe this over this because that's just how it goes! All other stories are false because I believe that's so!" That's close-minded and arrogant, in my opinion.
Hindu stories are as pleasant to read as Native American ones as Christian ones. So... What makes Christianity and its myths so much different and therefore correct as opposed to all the others? In 11th grade, I think it was, my Bible class studied this topic. There were five or so reasons to believe the Bible was true and right above all other religious texts. I can't think of all of them offhand, although I'm sure I could find them somewhere. One of the reasons was historical and geographical accuracy. But if you really think about that, what's so special about it? I mean, I bet I could write something "old" that's historically and geographically correct. So that's not much of a reason to believe something, in my opinion...
Now... I'm not saying I don't believe in a superior power, or even that I don't believe in the Christian God... I'm just saying I can't take a firm stand on it because of what I've been learning. So my question to you all is this: How do you keep believing what you believe when you're confronted with convincing evidence to the contrary?
.and is this my final chance of getting you?.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:13 pm
read C.S. Lewis' "The Great Miracle" from God in the Dock. it talks exactly about this issue. anything i say about this will be taken probably verbatim from it. :B
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:03 pm
Hi Kari!! (CS lewis- Mere Christianity is a great book for the intellectuals-concerning the doctrine and validity of Christianity)
Well, i just came back from church hearing a testimony about one pastor who was completely athiest and did not believe a word of christians because he thought of them as arrogant, hypocritical people.
But he was confronted as an adult to read the Bible and he did. He read the gospels first and then thought -"Oh, i know what christians believe, its this jesus guy" but he really didnt understand it. So he asked his friend- "HOW DO YOU KNOW ITS ALL TRUE????" and his friend told him to look up Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
well.. i really hope you read all that lol rolleyes
can you tell me what he's talking about? Isaiah the prophet talked about Jesus.. 700 years before he was born. (if you want to see the validity of these documents- they are the dead sea scrolls- all dated around 100 BC)Jeremiah, Ezekial .. and all those prophets who had prophecies:All of them came true..
Its the prophecies in the old testament that secure me in my intellectual belief in all these words. And its historically, geographically, archaeogically, life-changing-ly true...
This pastor .. who cussed at christians in high school..went through the death of his best friends when he went street racing..and finally went to seminary reading every word of the Quran and learning about all the religions, gave his testimony, saying that it was only this christianity that has prophecies and that buddha, muhammad, joseph smith, did not have prophecies that were fulfilled 700 years later.
Buddha, and all those others, didnt say they would die and rise again..
Christianity is really different.
If convincing evidence in your mythology class really is convincing.. sometimes.. you have to search out the truth. God will lead you to him, if you want to search for him.
i'll be praying- and i hope that you find something out of this
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:27 am
There's nothing wrong with being agnostic. Hell, I don't understand non-agnostics. Hard-theists and hard-atheists. They're both a bunch of nutjobs to me. Agnosticism, as I'm sure you already know, has nothing to do with belief. It does not mean that your faith is shakey, nor does it mean that you're begining to steer away from Christian theology and whatnot. Agnosticism is a knowledge claim. Used in the religious context, it typically is meant in regards to the existence of deities. If anything, you are thinking rationally. You are not doubting the existence of YHVH nor Yeshua, but are instead making the claim that whether or not they exist is unknowable, at least at this point in time. You would be called a "weak/soft theist." Now, I do understand what you're going through now. My suggestion would be to subscribe to whatever makes you most comfortable. If you find that Christianity isn't for you, then by all means, drop it. If not, stick with it. I think it's good to actually think these things through. I do it with my own religion a lot, and to be honest, it actually broadens my understanding of it. Surely you've already stumbled across the tales of the life of Mithra, yes? What were your thoughts on that, if so? ForeverForgiven And its historically, geographically, archaeogically, life-changing-ly true... How so? ForeverForgiven saying that it was only this christianity that has prophecies and that buddha, muhammad, joseph smith, did not have prophecies that were fulfilled 700 years later. To my knowledge, none of those people, with the exception of Joseph Smith, claimed to be the Messiah. Muhammad certainly did not, and Buddha would never claim such a thing. You know, comparisons between Buddhism and Christianity really irk me. Buddhism does not operate the same way Christianity does, with a guy coming to offer eternal salvation and whatnot. Buddhism is a philosophy on life, started by Siddhartha(sp?) Gautama (Buddha). He did not claim to be a god, nor did he claim to be able to save humanity from picking itself apart. He is not worshipped as Christ is worshipped. No parallels can be drawn. A religion, to be a religion, does not need to revolve around a Messiah. A prophet's (like Muhammad) teachings are good for many, or a wise, enlightened human being in general (like Gautama). Neither Islam nor Buddhism ever claimed to have had some Messiah come. To my knowledge, Islam is still waiting, and Buddhism doesn't expect one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:57 am
Quote: To my knowledge, none of those people, with the exception of Joseph Smith, claimed to be the Messiah. he claimed to be a prophet to restore the church, not the Messiah.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:17 pm
I am going to completely agree with burny as far as C.S. Lewis goes. I saw your post and that was where my thougths went immediately--he was so spiritually equipped to explain the very things I question. That said, to some degree, we are all a bit agnostic. It's like the bible says, "Lord I believe, but Lord, help me in my unbelief." everyone has days where they're like; "you know, if this isn't real, I'm gonna be pissed. or not...whatevs." I wrote a paper about C.S. Lewis and the way he portrayed Christ through allegory once. ANd then my final draft got deleted from my computer.... I was very angry. I thought it was one of the best things I had ever written, and then it was gone. I didn't even have a hard copy, thanks to the "Thank God I graduated" bonfire where all reminders of my jerk or an english teacher were burned.... anyway, to get back on topic.... here's a bit of related writing from the rough draft. Quote: Lewis also began to think of the resurrection of Jesus as a historical event. An off hand remark by T. D. Weldon, a fellow Oxford Don and atheist, sparked interest in Lewis. “Rum thing, that stuff of Frazer’s about the Dying God,” Weldon once said. “It almost looks as if it really happened once.” So many myths contained seeds of the same story, but as Lewis admitted the existence of a God, the story of Christ began to stand out among other myths. It was missing several elements common in other “Dying God” stories, like fertility and relationship to corn and the harvest. Jesus was, in essence, a “corn god without the corn.” (one myth) The gospels also lacked an emotional reaction for Lewis. Like Augustine, he found the gospels dull and artless. Whenever he encountered a “Dying God” in myth, he was “mysteriously moved, even though no one knows where he is supposed to have lived and died; he’s not historical,” though he was not similarly moved by the gospels. Friends Tolkien and Dyson recommended Lewis look at the gospels as both mythic and true—a myth become reality. Upon rereading the gospels Lewis found that stiff style in which they were written actually supported this view—if ever a myth became reality, it would look just as the gospels looked. The conclusion he reached was to view the gospel story indeed as mythic, “But with the tremendous difference that it really happened.’(one myth) Lewis was of the belief that myth was intrinsically important to God’s revelation. Essentially, “the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History.” (unfundamental) Myth is, in Lewis’ view, “a real, though unfocused gleam of diving truth falling on human imagination.”(unfundamental) Because of the importance Lewis placed on myths and the role myth played in his spiritual walk, it is no surprise that so much of his fiction is tinged with myth, as well as what became a common theme for Lewis, the implication that “all elements of myth as we know them are shadows of a foreign reality.” (Never-Never Land) Lewis understood the heartstrings a good story pulled at, believing them to be an indication of a reality greater than that which we know. and here are sources I used for that section of the paper: Quote: Lindskoog, Kathryn Ann. The Lion of Judah in Never-Never Land: The Theology of C.S. Lewis Expressed in His Fantasies for Children. 1. New York: Eerdmans, 1974. Nelson, Michael. "'One Mythology Among Many': The Spiritual Odyssey of C.S. Lewis." Virginia Quarterly Review 72(1996): 619-633. Sprague, Duncan. "The Unfundamental C.S. Lewis: Key Components of Lewis's View of Scripture." Mars Hill Review 2(1995): 53-63. Downing, David C.. The Most Reluctant Convert. 1st. Downers Grove, Il: InterVarsity Press, 2002. While C.S. Lewis addresses the issue of myth and history very well, It would likely also do good for you to research outside of his teaching. More than one person has come up against this issue. I'll be praying for you, and if iyou want to discuss it further, please don't hesitate to Pm me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:25 pm
Rowena Marion That said, to some degree, we are all a bit agnostic. It's like the bible says, "Lord I believe, but Lord, help me in my unbelief." everyone has days where they're like; "you know, if this isn't real, I'm gonna be pissed. or not...whatevs." o_o But agnosticism isn't a belief claim...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:30 pm
.so you know how much I need you.
It's more of... Based on what I now know, I can't be sure that the Christian stories are THE stories to believe, just because they follow the patterns of all the other religious myths. Therefore, I can't know who/what God really is, because... there are so many. @__@
.and is this my final chance of getting you?.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:59 pm
Well, it easy Kari, I need to at least mention you need a level of faith but then -- then there is so many other things. I mean, I had a lot of doubt in my mind for a long time -- but. I'm luck enough to be in a very supernatural church, I have NO reason to lie to you Kari, this isn't some big compericy to make you believe. I've seen a lot of unexplainable thing, for example Gold dust. Look it up I swear to you on my God, I just looked it up then. Our pastor had read a few book on it and he prayed for it one night in Church, you could tell by his voice he was worried the gold wouldn't turn up and everyone would be disheartened. We closed our eyes and prayed. We opened it, the room was suddenly a buzz. On the palms of the hand small shiny flakes covered most people hands. Some it looked like glitter which would appear, then could even disappear before the eyes. Some it coated there fingers in a fine blanket other times, it covered the floor in rather large flakes. One man had pure oil, the car type, the expensive type, seem to sweat from his palms, it covered it so thickly. It was amazing. Steve C, our musican got all his filling turn to gold. Which he didn't know about til the week after. Amazing much? And I just read this to see what you'd find when you looked it up. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d04.htmlIt says a lot of the things I said. Then there was the time, a friend who got married just two weeks ago broke his leg in foot practice, it was pretty bad. I think it was a clean break. Anyway, we where in a prayer meeting and we prayed for healing. He felt his leg tingle with warmth, and then, he pulled off the cast and jumped for joy. His leg was healed. I myself have a prophetic edge, I get feeling, images, and words that I most normally would not think about. Example we'll be praying. I'd pray in my heart "Lord what do you wanna say?" then my mind will seem to trail and words would fill it about someone I don't even know. There name, and what must be said and then an urgancy to go talk to them. Another time I got prayed over by a one Gavin Tait. I think that's how it spelled. He came over to me -- he was praying for everyone and said something no one else in the world knew -- about my horrible snuff film addiction and pornography addiction -- he said these words "God has called you to be a man of PURITY with the music you listen to and the thing you watch" -- I was shocked. Everyone knew about the screamo/emo/death metal I listen to -- of course not him because he was new there. But no-one about my snuff film and pornograph addiction. He prayed for me and then I felt a burning in my left hand after it began to manifest the feeling he says this "There it is! There the holy spirit! Hold it! Hold it! it's in your left hand my friend can you feel it?" I mumbled yes and he said "Hold on tight" and slowly the tingling burning traveled up my arm and into my whole body til I couldn't stand under my own will anymore and fell. I mean? Do any other religions offer something so real? So amazing? I don't think so -- Well the occult does -- but -- I was lucky to escape that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:23 am
Type Text Here, the site you linked to was a site about cults, and in the article specifically it wasn't exactly supporting the gold dust miracle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:34 pm
And if your Faith is reliant on so-called 'Miracles'(Sounds like bunk, to me), then it isn't faith at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:19 am
Don't you wanna come with me? Don't you wanna feel my bones on your bones?
It's only natural.
'Kay... Not to be rude, but stuff I hear about miracles like that really freak me out and make me think there is some crazy-a** cult thing going on. I'm not saying I don't believe in miracles, but they simply don't manifest in ways you're describing, Text. A few people at the church I used to go to spoke in tongues sometimes, and that was a bit weird. But if something like the gold dust incident happened at my church, I'd get up, leave, and never come back. That wouldn't inspire me-- it'd scare me.
Don't you wanna swim with me? Don't you wanna feel my skin on your skin?
It's only natural.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:01 am
Kari Seregon Don't you wanna come with me? Don't you wanna feel my bones on your bones?
It's only natural.
'Kay... Not to be rude, but stuff I hear about miracles like that really freak me out and make me think there is some crazy-a** cult thing going on. I'm not saying I don't believe in miracles, but they simply don't manifest in ways you're describing, Text. A few people at the church I used to go to spoke in tongues sometimes, and that was a bit weird. But if something like the gold dust incident happened at my church, I'd get up, leave, and never come back. That wouldn't inspire me-- it'd scare me.
Don't you wanna swim with me? Don't you wanna feel my skin on your skin?
It's only natural. Aye, ditto that. That's actually similar to one of the things that scared me the most out of that "Jesus Camp" movie. The director would tell the children to stand up, and tell them to start speaking in Tongues. I can't tell straight off about wether People speaking in tongues is Gibberish, or actually just the ability to spread the Gospel in different languages(like, a Polyglot would be blessed with many tongues), but I strongly deny the belief that you can get up and all of a sudden order your followers to do it. And, yeah, praying for Gold Dust doesn't soudn in the least bit right. At best it's Greedy(Why gold? Why not something simple like a working electrical system? Never seen that in a Church!), but asking God for a sign is just wrong. He asks for Faith to believe, and he warned ahead f time that even Satan can cast Miracles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:34 am
Don't you wanna come with me? Don't you wanna feel my bones on your bones?
It's only natural.
That's the thing. How you do know for SURE that God's doing the miracles instead of Satan or some other malicious entity?
Don't you wanna swim with me? Don't you wanna feel my skin on your skin?
It's only natural.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:07 am
you don't. Thus why it's foolish to rely on them for evidence of Truth, as it could just as easily be deceit.
Put your faith in what's good and true. if you see an organization that cares nothing for the good of the people, then it isn't the best place to find Christ. Remember the Two commandments that Christ called most important, "Love God above all else", and "Love thy Neighbor as Thyself". If your Church has failings in these two things...I'd say it's time to find better worship sweatdrop
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
