|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:33 pm
Dear Domo,
I have to wonder sometimes why it is that a lot of non Christian pro choicers value the quality of life for women. Christianity being a cross to a vampire in the debate of abortion, I looked to different prespectives and arrive to the same conclusion. If a woman aborts, she can seek her career, she can have a happy life and raise kids when she wants to. Even still, the endings for us are all the same. We are all equal in death. Even if we become famous celebrities, happy with life, and successful, we will share the same fate as someone who was abused all their life, that didn't appreciate life and was always pushed to the edge. The happy human being and the unhappy human being share the same fate, and thus our end is ultimately is neither happy nor sad. It is terminated, and we will eventually feel nothing.
And so why therefore looking at life from a non religious standpoint, would the ability for a woman to live "life to her fullest " matter when it is temporary, and when she dies she will have no ability to comprehend, or appreciate the life that she has had? If we are all fated to die, why does it matter? Does aborting a fetus provide the better ending if we are to be equal in fate? If we look at existence from a secular understanding, then why does it matter? All that you gained from aborting the fetus in your life will not ammount nothing to you either way, as you will ultimately for better for worse, for happier or for sadder, end up with the same ending as you would if you hadn't aborted. You will eventually have no care for what happens to you either way, and that is as far as can be proven. So why do we care if the woman is oppressed? Why do we care if she is burdened now when her legacy and feelings will eventually cease to have meaning to her, let alone others?
If the world should be so secular then what is the point of living a life that makes us happy when it will all end for all of us? Maybe secularism isn't the right word. Perhaps the word I secular isn't correct but no other ideology came to mind, but I hope the point I was trying to make didn't get lost in my potential in ability to articulate the way I want to. I'm still learning.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:47 pm
********. i was going to quote Grendel with an awesomely amazing quote on the meaning of life.
unforutnately, throughout the entire internet, this passage does not exist.
so, let me paraphrase- life is it's own purpose. it will grow and continue. who care why or to what end, so long as it is? tell them, dear, if eyes are made for seeing, then beauty is it's own excuse for being.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:53 pm
divineseraph unforutnately, throughout the entire internet, this passage does not exist. so, let me paraphrase- life is it's own purpose. it will grow and continue. who care why or to what end, so long as it is? tell them, dear, if eyes are made for seeing, then beauty is it's own excuse for being. That's very poetic, but I didn't understand. Well if it is all to end then how does life grow and continue. Again trying to maintain a sense of secularity, religious concepts such as afterlife and God cannot be used, since they cannot be proven with any research methods such science today. And life has no purpose for us if it's purpose is strictly to itself. I just don't understand how it'd matter if a woman lives a horrible life because she didn't abort when her end will be the same as she hadn't, and in both endings she won't care about her life expiriences because she is no longer capable of doing so.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:00 pm
The problem is that you are looking at this in a sense of "The end is all that matters." If, indeed, the end is all that matters, then yes, to an Atheist, it wouldn't matter what happens during life and we might as well all just hare-kare our way out of here. However, generally speaking, the end is only the most important part to a religious person; The "end" is actually the beginning of eternity either with the devil or God. But from a totally secular point of view, since the end is just that, an end of nothingness, the middle part, the journey, is what matters. Because it's all there is.
Let me put it this way; Every movie ends the same way. With a blank screen once the film has rolled up. Does this mean that every movie has exactly the same value? No, of course not. Because the blankness at the end isn't the important part at all. It's the middle that's important.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:18 pm
Actually to a religious person there is no end because they beleive in becomming immortal after death.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:27 pm
Yeah, that's what I said. neutral Me The "end" is actually the beginning of eternity
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:30 pm
But the main point is that, even though you are trying to look at this from a secular viewpoint, what you are actually looking at is the secular view from a religious viewpoint.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:45 pm
it is because it is, who cares why or how it ends or what haooenss when it ends.
simple enough yet?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:48 pm
I.Am Let me put it this way; Every movie ends the same way. With a blank screen once the film has rolled up. Does this mean that every movie has exactly the same value? No, of course not. Because the blankness at the end isn't the important part at all. It's the middle that's important. But you can assess value after the movie because you are capable of recreating the image of the movie in your mind, and can with your mind make comparisongs I.Am Yeah, that's what I said. neutral Me The "end" is actually the beginning of eternity But that makes no sense because to beleive in eternity is to beleive in no end. I.Am But the main point is that, even though you are trying to look at this from a secular viewpoint, what you are actually looking at is the secular view from a religious viewpoint. But your logic being that the for religion the end is more important, while also admitting that there IS no end from a religious viewpoint. Therefore how could it be looking at a secular viewpoint from a religious viewpoint? divineseraph it is because it is, who cares why or how it ends or what haooenss when it ends. simple enough yet? That reasoning is rather circular. When thinking about God or an eternity no longer existing it's not the who, how, or where the end happens, simply that it happens. What is the purpose of having a gratifying life when you will eventually no longer be able to comprehend or appreciate it when dead?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:28 pm
I'm a Secular Humanist, and I'm pro-life. Why? Look at the "human" in it. By definition, we as a group seek to better human life through cooperation and understanding. We're often very strongly minded when it comes to equal rights. In my own personal opinion, since there's only one life and one shot then what life that exists should be treasured and protected. I don't think a fetus is technically alive, but it will be and that's enough to protect.
I don't want women to suffer with a baby they don't want. In the current state of affairs, I'd like women to be able to put their child up for adoption without fear for its life. I don't think that the hatred of the current state of adoption should tamper with a chance at life. Best case scenario, I'd like available financial and healthcare to be useful enough that it'd provide a better alternative.
And you know, whether or not we all die the same doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't help. Life is no less valuable because it all ends in the same cadence. I don't think that "well, it doesn't matter anyway" is a healthy veiwpoint by any means. I'm not clear on whether you're an apathetic nihilist, a member of the faithful who doesn't understand why we athiests would care, or what kind of response you want.
All I really can say is that life is precious, and should be enhanced and protected. I think the apathy leading to a "why does it matter?" ideology is both pathetic and dangerous. Life is all the more valuable for its brevity.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:29 pm
you don't get the point of the words then- why you why me, why anything? the point is that it is, and that is all the point it needs to be.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:25 pm
divineseraph you don't get the point of the words then- why you why me, why anything? the point is that it is, and that is all the point it needs to be. The point sounded circular in logic. It is because it is...? The point sounds illogical. Why is it all the point it needs to be?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:26 pm
why does it need to be more?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:31 pm
divineseraph why does it need to be more? For one thing because it sounds circular in logic.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|