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Which I posted over at GameFAQs a few weeks ago, and felt like posting here now, just to see what you all think of it. It was a series of several posts, so it might be a little disjointed. And massive.



I have never really understood the FFTA bashing. I'll admit to it; I'm likely younger than many of you, and I'd be pompous and foolhardy to claim a good measure of maturity, but I'm still perplexed. Before anything else, I'd like to say that the Judge system annoyed me to no end, while beyond that, I had fun time with FFTA, though perhaps a little less than FFT. In brief, I liked FFTA's gameplay, but concur with the sentiment that it doesn't measure up to FFT, though I'd say there isn't as big a gap between the two as some make it out to be.

The main purpose behind my post, however, is to address the respective stories of FFT and FFTA. I am wholly baffled by the flack that FFTA has received from its story, and would like reason for it.

I liked FFT's story a good deal, despite it being hideously convoluted in manners unnecessary, IMO. It's rather like playing a game dealing in depth with dynastic ambitions and religion - in other words, rather like playing through the Thirty Years' War. A bit too much clutter, didn't particularly like the overload of drama and shock-value devices being rammed down my throat every few minutes, felt the characters' interactions at points woefully lacking in camaderie for a fighting unit (hey, my first SRPG was Bahamut Lagoon ^^ wink , and didn't care for the overall preach-y, righteous, and yes, a bit cliched nature of the presentation - Ramza and Delita veritably exude values - but I adored it nonetheless, being a history buff (had a lot of fun making connections between characters, sides, and post-Renaissance Europe), marvelling at the motive behind and connections between characters, and generally loving the intricate and deftly woven tapestry of story in FFT.

But complex stories are not the be-all of good storytelling.

As much as I liked FFT's story, I liked FFTA's more.

Before I continue, I'll put this out - I have a personal reason for my inclination, which may explain my preference of FFTA to FFT's story. As a child, I was very prone to flights of fancy, as are many young, shy children. I loved to weave my own fantasy worlds, oftentimes lifting one from a book or a show that I particularly liked at the time, and inserting myself into it. A few friends of mine liked doing the same, and together, we basically had rough roleplays, though none of us knew so much as the term. As such, when I saw Marche, Ritz, and Mewt transported to another world by a book, along with the personalities they each had, I could immediately relate, because I saw myself in them. Ramza makes for an interesting character to analyze, moreso than Marche, but I couldn't possibly relate to a young man with a set of morals entirely removed from mine - not due to innate differences, but due to consequence of circumstance. I could only relate to the characters of FFT on an abstract, "oh, he is having a moral dilemma/a conflict of belief/etc," sort of a way, whereas I felt I knew exactly what FFTA's characters felt.

However, even past this, the beauty behind FFTA's story remains. It, above all else, places emphasis on a classical story conflict; in FFT, the themes were muddy - not necessarily a bad thing, but not proof of superiority. In FFTA, two theme struck with crystal clarity - it's a story of escapism and passage into maturity. Fantasy worlds are all about escapism - ask yourself this: why do you play video games? For that matter, why do we read fictitious tales, watch television's fictitious shows, or take interest in any form of fictional storytelling, especially in the genres of fantasy and science fiction? One part is social commentary, I'll grant you that, but for many, it's connected with a desire to leave reality behind for a little while, and engage oneself in a world disconnected from our own, where we could be something else than what we are. And that is what Ivalice was - a castle in the sky, if you will, and this constitutes the first theme of FFTA.

The second evolves from this - children are prone to this in a much more involved way. Mewt, in particular, speak of this; he has little love of his life in reality, so when the opportunity arises, he takes it, and though it is a castle in the sky (connotation here being the negative one), he embraces it, and does not want to let go. Marche, however, though he doesn't particularly like his reality either, realizes the nature of this fantasy, and brings it down.

St. Ajora, the church, and the factions of FFT were symbolic of mankind's sins, vices, and overall, a representation of political finaglings, especially pertaining to the religious wars of Europe, and quite blatant at that. However interesting it was to make those connections (and believe you me, I had a blast doing just that, poring over my European history books), it lacked the feeling and artistry of FFTA's strongest symbol - Marche's returning the world from Ivalice symbolizes the progression in each an every person - the progression from youthful imagination to grounding in reality, and facing it as one must.

Even if you dispute this being better than the complexity of FFT, and I'm well aware that there is good, valid argument for it, you must admit - you don't see FFTA's story nearly as often as FFT's. It's a hard story to sell, as this fiasco has made apparent, but I can't understand why people don't appreciate it in this medium. Hayao Miyazaki's film, most notably Spirited Away, had much the same kind of story, the same theme, the same simplicity in morality, and won acclaim and praise for it. Yet, we deride FFTA for the same thing, and IMO, in equal, if not better presentation? In RPGs, stories about war are common as dirt, and games with aforementioned themes of human vice and said interactions between characters (political maneuvering, drama, etc) are a dime a dozen. Games with the "serious" plots pervade the medium. FFTA went in another direction; it brought a certain innocence to the medium, and presented something that, while perhaps not a masterpiece, was well-crafted for what it was.

In FFT, focus was cast on a dozen or so themes, few of which were, IMO, adequately developed; many other RPGs of these days are the same. FFTA opted to bring a somewhat "simpler" story, the only way to complement its theme, and for what its worth, did it damned well.

On a more character to character scale, the one thing I note above others is the things that Ramza and Marche respectively reject. Ramza rejects actions against his own innate sense of righteousness; Marche rejects fantasy in which he could have a life arguably better than that reality offers him. It is, in my opinion, unfair to compare the two, being as they are so different, but since others have done so, to me, at least, Ramza's seems somewhat more derivative and generic.

In summary, is FFTA simple? Perhaps. I'd argue that it is hardly as simple as many make it out to be, but really, is simplicity a bad thing? I've felt for some time that stories in post-SNES RPGs have become too convoluted for their own good - it's rather like they're throwing in plot twists for the sake of having plot twists, instead of crafting an art. This does't pertain as much to FFT as it does to many other games, but FFT is certain guilty of this as well.

Is FFTA's story childish? No. FFTA is child-like, in a way; there is a certain innocence to it that may, I concede, be off-putting to some, but to claim that its story is bad for this innocence is asinine.

Well, what is FFTA's story, then? FFTA's story is that of growth and maturity, of imagination, and of childhood. This is a tale that is universal, and one which most people should be able to relate to, whether in the now, if one is a child, or with fond reminiscence of times gone and one's own transition into maturity, if one is older.

I'm sorry for the diatribe, but I simply fail to understand how all of this is labeled bad and trite. I understand that it doesn't cater to everyone's tastes, but that's hardly grounds for insinuating that it is outrightly horrid. Mind, these are the opinions of one still puerile, so I hope you'll excuse any blatant or flagrant naivete on my part.

Perhaps it is that gamers are trying to compensate for something? Trying to prove something about themselves by deriding this perceived childishness as below them?

It is partially about personal preference and bias, though I can't help but wonder if the intense FFT love isn't at least partially due to the perception held by many that the more convoluted, the better - regardless of the actual quality, it seems. I'm all for a bit of well done convolution, but excessive twisting can suck the artistry out of a story like a vacuum.

That, and I simply don't see what is so "childish" about FFTA's story. It is one of the classic themes of literature - the passage of childhood into maturity (to whatever extent), used for many worthy, time-honored novels, whether for children or adults, albeit less so than that of human vice. But, doesn't that merely make FFTA all the more special? And certainly, we don't berate fairy tales, and even enjoy them for their simplicity - why isn't it the same for FFTA?

It is sad what passes for a "deep" story these days. As far as I can tell, the general public's idea of a brilliant story is one that involves as many themes and controversial topics as it can (without taking time to develop the majority of them) and perpetually throws plot twists around, until the plot is excessively convoluted, in the process depriving said plot twists of the emotive, artistic, literary, and philosophical power that each should have.

Then they turn around, point to it, and call it "complex", asserting that that is the end-all, be-all of good storytelling.

A sad misconception indeed.

- Here, a poster, Lithium8606, asserted that FFT's story is superior, as it alluded to many more things. Then, Dravenguild asserted that FFTA's story is trite because of the "Children Saving the World" Syndrome. -

BEWARE - RAMBLING AHEAD.



Oh, no. I should have added a little caveat to that - I certainly find FFT far above par when it comes to the use of sensationalism and whatnot.

However, I'm fairly sure no one will contest me when I say that it is a general trend, and FFT is guilty of it at times (heck, so was FFTA, albeit to a lesser degree). Also, I've seen FFT's themes and general story a million times over, and it is all too common in SRPGs.

And again, even if they were deftly woven into the storyline, that there was such a multitude of them detracts from the power of each. Quality over quantity, and as quantity rises, one becomes habituated, thus being detrimental on quality.

I can't speak on your first allusion, for I have not read that of which you speak. ^_^;

As for the Bible, I'm sorry, but frankly, I've seen better interpretations of that source, and the way they throw around religious symbolism just to "heighten" the supposed artistic quality of the story... I'm utterly sick of it. It's been done ad nauseum, to the point where I commend a story for excluding them rather than having them.

I'll say it - I don't appreciate Shakespeare. I see his mastery of words, his impeccable wit, and his aptness at veiled social commentary, but I see nothing that propels him that far above the other masters of literature to his venerated spot. I don't care for his plots - so very melodramatic, and prone to dragging on to eternity, not to mention wholly derivative. His comedies are delightful (how I love Benedict and Beatrice! And who could forget Feste and Malvolio?), but his tragedies I've little taste for. Why? His strength is wordplay, exemplified in his comedies, but to me, they seem out of place in his tragedies, and beyond that, I'm afraid I can't say much of the man. Some pompous eggheads put the man on a pedestal, and the crowd, wanting to have the pretense of intellect, left him permanently ingrained in our collective psyche.

Perhaps this makes me unfit to judge stories, but I can hardly help it. By this count, I'm either an absolute idiot, a foreigner, or a really pompous egghead (I admit to the first and second). XD

Mind, you'd have infinitely impressed me had you compared Delita to Napoleon (and what a comparison to be made, in some ways!) or the Reign of Terror. ^_^ I love how he basically represented the third estate.

BTW, someone mentioned Cao Cao on the FFT board, and I was supremely impressed, even if they were speaking of the (vile) video game corruption of him. Indeed, if not the French Revolutionary leaders, I'd say Delita is most like Cao Cao - foster son of a noble, devious (though with Delita, it was an acquired trait, and not innate), and backstabbing. Eh, he quoted the (IMO) less apt words of, "Better I should wrong the world than the world should wrong me," where as I prefer, spoken of Cao Cao, "You would be a capable minister in peaceful times and an unscrupulous/righteous (depends on translation) hero in chaotic times." Coupling that with Cao Cao's deviousness, brilliance, and actually comparatively normal treatment of his subjects (historically, not those exaggerated accounts given in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms) really hammer the idea home. Maybe I just like the notion because I'm Chinese and recently read the volumes, though. XD

When did Delita die? I was under the impression that he had a fair time as king...

And that there are so many examples is not necessarily a good thing - this tends to simply mean that it was a whole load of rehash and derivation from other sources. ^_^;

As for Ramza, I'm one of the mean people who'd call him naive, and too painfully so. ^_^

The thing about Ramza is that his preachiness (rather, what the creators of the game sought to preach through him) grinded my last nerve - almost all of his lines were bogged down in philosophical blah-de-blah and coated in moral question marks and the like. Again, a case of quantity stifling quality inadvertantly.

And in addressing those quotes, well, I could apply them to just about any character which died in a story, ever. Doncha love the ambiguity, same as that which con artists in their "prophecies" use? ^_^;

Ending...well. I felt like it was a bit of a gip, though I personally still loved it (believe that Ramza and Alma died, personally), and loved the bit about the stifling of the truth by those up there. I keep wondering if that last line was bungled up somehow. It also was an unfitting time to be bringing in a climax of any kind, and this comes from one who has no qualms (and, in fact, rather enjoys) conclusions without complete closure.

Agh, it sounds as though I'm bashing FFT, doesn't it?

Therefore, I feel I must iterate that I did enjoy FFT's story. In fact, quite immensely, in comparison most video games, and, objectively, on par with FFTA (wow, I'm probably the only one you'll ever hear/see saying/typing that XD). What I'm saying is that it's unjust to claim that FFTA is riddled with flaws by looking deeply into FFT while turning a blind eye to its flaws, while barely skimming the surface of what FFTA has to offer and decrying flaws that aren't wholly there.

I mean, I was initially slightly discontent with FFTA's story, even past my immediate relation to the characters, seeing it at face value and anticipating an epic, sweeping story. But when I sat down and thought about it, took the time to really muse over it, I found it deeply rewarding.

I certainly don't mean to insinuate that FFTA's plot is flawless - far from it. It moved at the pace of an ameba, and could definitely have done with a few more plot twists and points of intrigue, as well as a bit of a deeper look into Marche's psyche. It did have quite a bit of wasted potential, and its character interactions left something to be desired, even in comparison to FFT, which itself wasn't stellar in that department (mind, I'm speaking of characters beside the enemies, Ramza, Delita, and Alma. A whole lot of fifth wheels running around the FFT Ivalice, too).

All I'm saying is that if you did that, and still found it not to your tastes, fine - it simply doesn't suit you (even if it perplexes me that it doesn't). However, to not look at the depth and power of the theme inherent in FFTA and claim it is fatally flawed...Well, that doesn't bode too well with me.

And none of these flaws will stop me from enjoying both; heck, when I'm in the midst of playing, their hardly even a blip on the radar. I'm just uncomprehending of what I see as undue criticism, and since I liked FFTA and its story, got a bit defensive.

LOL at the "Children saving the world" comment. I'm sorry, but as long as teenagers remain the main target audience of video games, we're not going to get many "war-torn veterans". Hell, I'd love to see it, love to play as a battle-scarred, world-weary commander just for once, not some random kid or "chosen one", and it's been a gripe I've had against the industry for quite some time, but let's face it - not going to happen. Grit and grime aren't exactly embraced with open arms by the majority of target age group, especially with the industry's swing to appeal to the female audience. Not, mind you, insulting girls in any way, but it seems this way to me. How many fangirls do you know who would prefer to play as a forty-something, scarred, hardened, plain-looking commander who drills his troops like an officer in the marines, makes cynical comments about things, takes the world as what it is (that is, little angst), is habituated to killing, is willing to torture and do all manners of unsavory things to get the job done, wrestles with political figures to forward his own interests, and smokes like a chimney over a young (teen-twenties) pretty boy who wallows in angst up to his neck? Riiiiight. I'm the only girl I know who'd absolutely adore the former and choose it, in a heartbeat, over the latter.

As for FFTA, interestingly, Marche didn't save the world - he destroyed it. The world the game dealt with and that the player was immersed in was fantasy Ivalice, which Marche destroyed, largely for his own personal beliefs as opposed to any altruism and desire to help fellow man on his part (certainly, one could readily argue that many would prefer being in fantasy Ivalice, and there was nothing particularly bad about the world), making him more of an anti-hero than most other FF characters.

So I'd say that FFTA could even be loosely considered a case of "CDTW" - "Children destroying the world."

In any case, I'd argue that it isn't so much "CSTW" as it is "TSTW" - teenagers saving the world. Look at your list. Ferrik is fifteen, Ratix looks to be in his late teens, Claude and Fayt are nineteen, Link approaches sixteen in AoL (interesting that you would choose the earlier ones, considering that OoT/MM's Link starts out as a young boy), Squall is seventeen, Zidane is sixteen, and Vaan (if he even counts as a main character) is seventeen. More on Vaan later. Cloud is twenty-one in FFVII, I'm not aware that Alphonse has an age in Knights of Lodis, and Tidus was seventeen (younger, if you'll note, than Claude and Fayt up there, and same as Squall).

Vaan is a perfect illustration of what I mean - here's what Yoshida had to say about the main character of FFXII, if you haven't already seen:

Yoshida: In the early stages of development the hero character was more rugged -- big and tough. As we started shaping up the scenario and taking into consideration the target demographic, the character became what you see today. There were other ideas tossed around.

Until motion capture and voice actor Kohei Takeda was cast for Vaan, the main character was actually a little more effeminate. With him playing the role, the character became more active, upbeat, bright and positive. The character would have been even more effeminate had Takeda not been cast.

...Damned stupid target demography. -_-;

I fervently wish it wasn't the case, but they want to sell games first and foremost, so originality and artistry will never overtake the tried and true, no matter how annoying and overdone the latter is. It's even sadder to know my part of the intended audience (teenaged girls) are the primary cause of this.

It's even more unbearably convoluted, though, IMHO, when a teenager is promoted to officer and leads sizable units (Magnus, I'm looking at you). Seriously, what in the name of - ugh, that's a trend that is worse than CSTW/TSTW...

And what you and I want is a pipe dream at best, at least for the RPG genre. What I wouldn't give for a gritty, cynical, older lead, but alas! I don't see it happening anytime soon. I've resorted to playing historical war games of various genres to help tide me over.

FFVII, though, is the penultimate (second to last, if anyone is baffled, not best) in examples. Really, Cloud? Please. About as far from what I'd like to see as possible. I'd love FFVII far more if we played as the rough, stubbled, smoking, cynical and sarcastic Cid. My true gripe with the generic hero in saving the world is not as much about age as it is about type, and if anything, Marche doesn't fit this mold by seeking to destroy fantasy Ivalice, not being very fazed by the desires and opposition of friends, and quite frankly, being younger than the norm - he seems to be preadolescent, not teenaged.

I knew inviting you to the guild was a good idea. Hm, I should've just extended that contest for giving Gold to whoever made the best topic...

Thoughts:

1. I actually play games for reasons other than escapism (mostly)--if I want escapism, I'll go with an FPS, or fighter, or some other game that's actually FUN to play, instead of an RPG, which is the worst genre in history when it comes to gameplay. When I play an RPG, it's the same as when I read a book or watch an anime/cartoon or such--I'm doing it to see originality, complexity, clever thinking, human ideals and portrayals, and themes. Which is probably why I appreciate FFTA more than most people, because the "Don't Do Drugs Escapism" theme doesn't have an unpleasant ring of truth in it for me.

2. I find that, with the exception of Kiki's Delivery Service and Princess Mononoke, Miyazaki films are FAR outclassed by most FF games in terms of artistic value and ingenius and original plots. Either he's the most overrated animator on the planet or I'm missing as much in Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle as Bebop and Rocksteady would miss while reading War and Peace. And I have enough faith in myself to doubt the latter.

3. I'm used to people telling me that my posts explain their thoughts on some RPG-related matter better than they could. It's a new and welcome feeling to tell you, Byuu, that you sum up my thoughts on FFTA's value better than I can.

4. That being said, I still regard FFT as being an RPG of a significantly higher caliber.

5. Bah, heathen! Shakespeare kicks a**! Granted, I may consider a few other writers a little better, but still.

6. Delita's proposed death is a legitimate one. The ending of FFT leaves the possibility open that he dies from the wound Ovelia gives him (and that certainly makes the most logical sense), and since it never chronologically places when she does this specifically, it's entirely possible that the scene happens after the latest reasonable knowledge of his activities occurs (the mention in the ending that years after the game's events, Olan's convicted of heresy and killed for his Durai Report). There's nothing in the game to say he does or does not die at Ovelia's hands in the ending. I personally believe he did, just because it wouldn't make sense otherwise--he's alone out there, and unless that Chocobo he rode in on does some immense Choco Healing, he's got no one to help him get to a doctor.

7. Want to play a war-weary veteran who's not a kid? Please check out Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, por favor. Emphasis on the second game for your request, but you can't just skip the first to get to that.

8. You still haven't told me how you knew of my Thinking Inside the Box at Icy's.

Bah, read something GOOD by Shakespeare, not that subpar Romeo and Juliet thing. Romeo and Juliet is to Shakespeare as Final Fantasy 8 is to Final Fantasy--a hum-drum yawn that in no way represents the collection as a whole. Its one saving grace is that I have a sneaking suspicion that Shakespeare meant for it to show that young, unthinking love will do absolutely nothing but give you and everyone you know trouble.

Also, Metal Gear = Not RPG. I think Byuu was thinking more along the lines of RPGs.

@ Ess_Tii_Eph_Yhu -

Thank you for your vote of confidence. Coming from you, that means a great deal, since I've admired Thinking Inside the Box for a long time now.

1) Context matters here - on the GameFAQs page, we were speaking exclusively of RPGs, and for me, the story is pivotal in an RPG of any kind, since, as you've said, RPGs are hardly known for their gameplay.

2) Personally, I find the simple presentation a point in favor of Miyazaki's works, and the stories of the recent FFs a little too convoluted for my tastes, but I realize that I'm probably in the minority here.

3) Coming from you, that's just...wow...

4) I'll admit it; my aforementioned bias (concerning my own childhood) is probably what's to account for my preference of FFTA over FFT. At the same time, I had an amazing amount of fun finding the correlations between FFT and the various wars of Europe - I even wrote a test essay for my AP European History class concerning them. I've since lost it, sadly, but it was the most fun I'd ever had writing an essay for an exam, and I got a full score on it. So yeah, I more than acknowledge the genius in FFT's story.

5) Again, context may matter here. His wordplays are truly amazing, and I simply adore his comedies (even Twelfth Night, cliched as it was), but they seem out of place in his tragedies, which, IMO, are otherwise solid, but not amazing. FFT more closely resembles his tragedies, but I'd say that it has a better plot than them (blasphemy, I know...).

6) True, true. Sorry for the ignorance there.

7) You know, several people have recommended KOTOR. I'll have to get around to playing it sometime. As for MGS, yeah, I overlooked that... Don't ask me how. The very next poster noted that, and I was kicking myself for not remembering - how can one forget MGS?

cool Oh, that? I stumbled across it when I was perusing the web for Skies of Arcadia; it further piqued my interest when I saw that you'd made a Bahamut Lagoon-related post, and after reading a few, was wholly awed by the analyses in the various aspects of RPG gaming. BTW, said post was amazing.

And Sieg Ryu.2, I know exactly what you mean. I had been indifferent to Romeo and Juliet before, but after a horrendous time reading it in English, I now hate it because it drudges up bad memories.

Though, it was very interesting that she later chose me to read/act the part of Leonato in Much Ado About Nothing - a mismatch in more than one way...

if I'd bothered to read all that, I bet I would only like FFTA a little more than I do now...

-.-... Sorry... Too busy with other junk *cough*

I'll read it on Sunday...

-.-...

Go play Star Ocean ^.^ or Saga you can pick yourself -.-

I actually meant 2 -.-... lol.

SO1 was relatively too short, and I forget which character is the main one seeing as you end up choosing your whole main party from your stupid actions -.-...

Rena wasn't too fun, though she is too stereotypical in her "I'm a Mage Char" style.... -.-