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A guild for learning about and speaking in the language Esperanto. 

Tags: Esperanto, Language, Learn, Constructed, Foreign 

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Niddler

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:36 pm


Sure Esperanto is great. We all (members of this guild) think that. But still, there are some details I wonder why the inventor(s)/developer(s) of Esperanto wanted to have as they are:

1. "Maleity" (what's the English word?). A language of peace should be queer. That's it.
Esperanto isn't. Just look at the suffix -in, which denotes female version of the word. And then we have a ge- prefix for words that are both male and female (gepatroj=parents).
That means that every word is male, if you don't specifically mark them as female or neutral. Does that sound allright? No, it doesn't. Should be that every word is neutral unless you don't mark it as male or female, shouldn't it?
Also, it would be a great idea, when you create a new language, to not separate he from she. It really isn't necessary, and somewhat hinders sexual equality. I think that in Finnish you don't distinguish between them.

2. Single you pronoun. There is one: ci. But why isn't it used? Maybe I should start using it and others will learn what it is and see the advantage of it...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:01 pm


Niddler
1. "Maleity" (what's the English word?).

The word is "masculinity". 3nodding

Esperanto is absolutely riddled with problems!
If you don't believe me, see:
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto


But whatever. I like it anyways.

Although when I speak Esperanto, I try to fight the inherent gender bias by not using -in- unless I'm actually trying to draw attention to the fact that something is female. Otherwise, I avoid using it. It doesn't make sense to me that a female student is expected to say "Mi estas studantino," whereas a male student would say "Mi estas studanto" and not "Mi estas virstudanto" or "Mi estas studanticxo," and if he did say one of the latter two it would be considered unusual.

Dave


eiei...OMGWTFBBQ
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:20 pm


Yeah, I hear you on that one. Esperanto isn't a perfect language. But then again, when it was created (before women [at least in America] really had a say in things) In modern-day society it makes no sense, but back then, I suppose it did.

In the constructed languages guild, they have a nifty link to a language-creating guide. On the website it links to, the author links to a page with the irregularities of Esperanto.

On a side note, I believe "ci" means something like "thou" and really wouldn't make much sense in modern life, either.

I also generally ignore the "in" prefix. After all, is it really totally appropriate to tell the world about the fact that your cat is a girl? I'll still use "ge" because as far as I know, "patroj" means "fathers" and there's no gender-neutral word for "parent." Please correct me if I am wrong heart
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:05 pm


Hmm. The gender thing doesn't bother me. I usually just ignore it, and only use "-in" if it's important to stress that something is female. Even though without the "-in", all words are supposedly male, it's a neutral sort of maleness. To me, it's more of a lack-of-feminimity than a glaring abundance of masculinity.

As for what does bother me...I guess I don't like how it sounds sometimes. The j's for plurals sound icky to me. Always "-ojn" and "-ajn". I also am a little bothered about how it's so Europeanish. But I guess that just makes non-Europeans allowed to be more proud of learning it.

cooch


Dave

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:59 pm


eiei...OMGWTFBBQ
I also generally ignore the "in" prefix. After all, is it really totally appropriate to tell the world about the fact that your cat is a girl? I'll still use "ge" because as far as I know, "patroj" means "fathers" and there's no gender-neutral word for "parent." Please correct me if I am wrong heart

See, the problem (in my opinion, and in the collective opinions of people who regard Esperanto as a sexist language) is that the words for "parent" (gepatro) and "mother" (patrino) are formed from the word for "father" (patro), whereas it would make more sense if they had a root for "parent" and then formed the words for "mother" and "father" from that root... for example, patro could have been assigned the meaning "parent," and then father and mother would be virpatro/patricxo and patrino, respectively.

cooch
Hmm. The gender thing doesn't bother me. I usually just ignore it, and only use "-in" if it's important to stress that something is female. Even though without the "-in", all words are supposedly male, it's a neutral sort of maleness. To me, it's more of a lack-of-feminimity than a glaring abundance of masculinity.

When I speak Esperanto, I deliberately attempt to equalize "-in-" and "vir-/-icx-". If I want to refer to, say, an Esperantist who just happens to be female, I will use "esperantisto" instead of the gender-biased "esperantistino" which calls unnecessary attention to the fact that this person is a woman.

Interestingly, though, I keep the linguistic gender bias intact when I'm talking about animals. I refer to my (male) dog, Zack, as a "hundo" (not "virhundo"), and yet I refer to female dogs as "hundinoj". I'm not sure why exactly I do that. I think it might be because we tend to have special words for female animals in English -- a female dog is a b***h, adult female cattle are cows, a female bird is a hen, etc. -- and so I feel obligated to specify what sex an animal is, lest the listener assume that the female animal to which I am referring is male.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:16 pm


it's not a primary language in any country! and it's not taught in public schools, as so few people know it.

and this could be a minus, if you like complications: it's not that hard to learn.

Penina Twirly Skjirt


`Fenix

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:19 pm


i think the hardest thing is the question words "kiu, kiam, kio, etc..." I always have trouble remembering which ones are which neutral
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:47 pm


The thing I hate about esperanto is the fact that I can't speak it...

x6Agent6Assassin6x


eiei...OMGWTFBBQ
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:49 pm


eNHANCEismoi
The thing I hate about esperanto is the fact that I can't speak it...
Then we'll just have to teach you!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:45 am


The attitude of ignorant people towards it.

Ozumou


Niddler

PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:08 am


Hey, did you know there is a variant of Esperanto, called Riism (Riismo)? Perhaps it's only me who is behind the news ("new" meaning at least 1991) sweatdrop but I just found out.

Anyways, the variant basically adds two rules to the language:
  • Ri as genderless third-person pronoun. That is, li and ŝi are substituted, to ultimately remove difference between genders.
  • The -iĉ- suffix, which is the opposite of the official -in-. Also, the "unsexifying" ge- prefix is removed since the need of it disappears.
Read what I read at http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riismo
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:26 pm


Oh, no I didn't 3nodding

I'm guessing that considering where you posted this, you don't like one of the systems, although I can't say which for sure. confused

Pray tell? mrgreen

eiei...OMGWTFBBQ
Crew


Niddler

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:23 pm


eiei...OMGWTFBBQ
I'm guessing that considering where you posted this, you don't like one of the systems, although I can't say which for sure. confused

Pray tell? mrgreen
What I don't like is what I said in the initial post: there are different pronouns for he and she respectively, plus the thing with the -in suffix. Riism solves this problem, and therefore I prefer it.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:53 am


It's not an easy language to pronounce, but it's easy enough to read. The other problem is that there is some prerequisite language required (even a base language like Latin helps to understand, but a common language like Spanish or Russian will do something). I have the Latin, the French, the Hebrew, and the Spanish, but for someone who doesn't it's hard.

Penina Twirly Skjirt


Vamprey_kitty
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:50 pm


o-o
Esperanto is pretty simple to pronounce. Ĥ might take some practice but it's not that complicated and even though you're supposed to roll your r's any type of r is acceptable. Only others I can think of are things like "Kiuj" which sounds like a cross between key-ewwie and Kiwi.XD
I don't think you need to learn another language before it to make it easier. It's easy already. Although it's true learning a second language makes any after easier.
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