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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:00 pm
Read it, learn it and believe it. If you don't get it, don't give up on learning. It can be confusing the first time but you can get study guides from bookshops, go to someone who have studied this well in theology or get a video or DVD to help you. You must be patient in learning this book because it can be confusing the first time. Do NOT assume anything in this book but confirm it with knowledge and meditate on God's words. I wasn't going to make this thread because of the riskyness of misinformation but I guess it might help you to be aware of Jesus' second coming and that is important to teach each other about the prophetic words and truth.
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:36 pm
One of my favorite books. I will be glad to help anyone with question about it. You may have to give my time to go home and look through some of my notes. I wish I could keep it all stored in my head. This book is a book we need to understand. This book is writen to the churches.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
For course the seven churches are symbolic of the whole body of Chirst, or as we call it the church. Seven in bibical numerics mean Spiritaul perfection or completion.
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:31 pm
What do think about rapture? It's really exciting really but those left behind can still be saved as long they don't get the mark of the beast. I'm all over the place. Ok you see I don't get the timeline much. We are in the church age heading to rapture, which can be anytime. Like I'm little confused with the sequence. Some theories of rapture is during the great tribulation but I heard my Uncle's message and he said it's going to be before, such a powerful message. He said so because he had studied the Bible well and he was called to speak about the second coming of Jesus. I believe it is before the great tribulation. How the heck did people come out with different theories anyway? Even the Old Testament links to the the second coming of Jesus and Salvation. I haven't read the whole Bible but I went through it but I want to make an effort to do it for God. I guess we can start with what comes first in this book like the order of things.
The Church message was very straight foward. I surveyed myself in many ways and find that I'm not that great as a Christian. Also the mentioning about Jezebel and Balaam from OT was interesting. Many churches are definitley falling a part. Some not lively because of their rituals, traditions and 'laws'. Some tolerate sin in their church so I wanted to make sure that I was not one of the church that failed. Still in the process of repentance of course. I really should quote more from the bible.
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:37 pm
This is going to be long so bare with me.
The verse they get the rapture idea from is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:40-41 & Revelation 4:1-2. The problem with this is there is no proof of the church flying away if you look at the whole thing. I'll cover each one starting with Matthew.
Matthew 24:40-41 says
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Neither of these verse say who is left and who leaves. The Verse before tell who is left and who gets taken away.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Noeh or Noah as we no him was still serving the Lord while others left and went to serve anything but our Father. Many giving themselves in marriage to the angels (Gen 6.). The one in the field would be Noah and the ones that left were also the ones taken by the flood.
Now 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the most popluar ones to quote.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The problem with saying this is the church Rapture before the tribualtion is there is no time give to when this happens.
Verse 15 states that wen can not stop those that are alseep or dead from returning to the Father. In 16 the shout is the seventh trump which is the last trump. The dead in Chirst realy has already risen. The minute you die, your soul go and asend to the Father (2 Corinthians 5: 8 ).
Now verse 17 is where they quote the most of these three. They take the phrase "caught up", which it really "snatched up" in the greek, as flying away which in not bibical according to Ezekiel 13:20. They also take "clouds" and "air" literaly but they also are symbolic. In Hebrews 12:1 we see the word "cloud" being used to repersent a group and "air" has been used as a symbol for "spirit." Plus the literal "air" and "clouds" can touch the ground.
The last verse that is popular use is Revelation 4:1-2. They take John going up as the church going up and there is no proof other then they say the church is no long talked about in the rest of the book.
I stand on the scripture that says the chirstian are here like.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
skip the 12 tribe verses to
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:12 pm
That really sums it all up. Matthew is a book that definitely focuses on His second coming. I think he constantly reminds us that there will be a rescue before tribulation, that He is coming for the people that abides in Him and that when He comes tribulation takes place. Christians who are left behind are still saved when the choose not to get the mark of the beast. I think I was confused before with the tribulation think but I get it now. Right now in the age of the church, tribulation is can be anytime. It's like:
-Church age
-Rapture
-Tribulation 3 1/2 years
-Great Tribulation 3 1/2 years
-Jesus' Second coming
-Jesus' 1000 years of reign on earth
-Judgement of evil
-Judgement of Christians (saved)
-New Heaven and Earth
I'm not 100% sure about the details but thats my brief understanding. I might miss out on something but if i did tell be. Sorry I don't have my Bible with me to quote from and I have been busy.
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:49 pm
This is what I get from my study of the end days. This comes from multible place in the bible.
1 Wars and rumors of war.
2 Crys for peace.
3 The first of two tribluation for six months.
4 Satan comes an rules for a half hour during the sixth trumpt.
5 Seventh trump sounds, Jesus comes for His children. Those who took the mark will feel the second trublation. God wrath.
6 Jesus sets up His temple and 1000 years rule with rod of Iron, everyone is in a spiritual body.
7 Then all are judged, all those found guilt are cast into the lake of fire for the second death. Those redeemed enter into the third Earth age.
I'm not worried for the chrildren of our Father that have the seal of God in their forhead will not be harmed. Like Daniel and the three Hebrew children. Each on went trough a tribulation but was protected by our Father through it. He never took them from it. The same with Moses in Egypt and Noah with the Ark. Noah listen to God and was protected by the Ark by listening to the Father. Moses is the same way with the blood on the door post back in egpyt.
Our Father changes not and everything that has happen is a forshadowing of events that will happen. As there is nothing new on the world.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:40 pm
Yeah I definitely agree with you, lots of things are happening now that I feel that the end is coming. There is so much links from the Bible to what's going on here.
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Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:05 pm
Well let's get back to talking about the book of Revelation. Warning long post about Chapter one.Quote: Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Quote: Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Quote: Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Quote: Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Quote: Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Quote: Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Quote: Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Quote: Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Quote: Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Quote: Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Quote: Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Quote: Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Quote: Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Quote: Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Quote: Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Quote: Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Quote: Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:36 am
Well, I have studied Reformed Escathology (sp?). My pastor went to receive those classes with a group of about thirty other pastors of different churches, and then he came back to the church I go to and teached us about it. The book of Revelations is written in an Apocalyptic way, thus showing us a lot of figures that in some cases must not be taken literally. For example: We can't expect to actually see a dragon, but we know that the dragon has is nothing but a figure, representing something. I don't have to say what that something is, because I think you know it. The rapture, however, is one of those things that is so controversial in our times. To talk about it, I would have to spend a lot of time, which I don't have right now. I've spoke about it in other guilds, not based in my private interpretation, but through prayers, through my Bible teachers, through my pastors, through other brothers and sisters in Christ, and through some internet sites. Some of these sites that might bring some more light on the rapture are: - "The Illusory Hope of Rapture"- "Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?"- "A Critique of Left Behind Thinking" (Calvin Institute of Christian Worship) Even though the Church will have to endure through hard times, Christ Himself said that the "gates of Hades will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18b). Just as He is the Lord, the King, the Alpha and Omega, the Savior, He is also the protector of His Church. He will protect His bride until the end, because He said it. That's the hope that the book of Revelation gives us. Remember that John was writting to Christians who were being (and were going to) be persecuted. It was a letter to give them hope and comfort in Christ, showing them that no matter what happened, the Church would remain. More than 1,900 years later, the Church of Christ still stands, and it will until the End of Times, when Christ come in all His glory, finally fulfilling the last prophecies.
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:23 am
One reason I don't believe that we will fly away is becuase of this verse.
Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
It is talking about the soul, not the flesh here.
As for
"The book of Revelations is written in an Apocalyptic way, thus showing us a lot of figures that in some cases must not be taken literally. For example: We can't expect to actually see a dragon, but we know that the dragon has is nothing but a figure, representing something. I don't have to say what that something is, because I think you know it. "
Most of the bible is written using figure. Of course the bible is taught on three levals. Of cousre we will not see a fire brething dragon but the greek word is Drakon which mean beuatify snake, which is symbolic of Satan.
In Ezekiel 31, you'll find a tree,edar in Lebanon, that is symbolic of Satan back in the garden.
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