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Mystic White Raven Captain
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 Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:16 am
"One Twue Way" is the idea people sometimes get that their way is The Only Right way to do something. In our case it usually refers to kink things like how to wield certain impliments or how to be a Dom or a sub. What made me want to start this discussion was some commentary on the Leather lifestyle. It made me happy and excited. I love debates and discussion, not arguments. I hate arguments... but anyway: Quote: I have my opinions but am always welcoming of other views. I don't buy into the whole "leather tradition" idiocy - I am very supportive of leather families, but the amount of new people who stumble into it and are indoctrinated into some form of One Twue Way horrifies me. One does not need to "become a sub" in order to become a better dom or m-type. Not all Dom's/M-types are submissive in the slightest - bottoming for kink scenes may help them to understand what an experience feels like, but to convince fledgling Dom's that they *must* first be someone's submissive is ridiculous. If a person is not submissive then they're not submissive, bottoming won't teach them what sub space feels like or what responsibility is. I agree whole-heartedly about there being no one true way and so do the Leather people I know. Their way is just that, their way. They aren't saying that a person can't be a true Master/Mistress other ways. They don't force it down people's throats either. A lot of times, as I understand it, they don't offer to teach the prospective person unless that person comes to them and asks to be taught. As for the part about the D-type not being submissive, I honestly don't know the details about it so I can't say what they actually go through. The idea of it appeals to me because it is much more structured and has more history behind it. I have found that many people claim to be Masters and have only picked up a paddle once or twice and nothing else. It makes sense to me maybe because I am in martial arts and I equate the two. In martial arts you start as a white belt and are taught the skills and gain the knowledge gradually throughout your training. Anyone can call themself a Black Belt but without the knowledge and skill to back it up, it doesn't mean much. In Leather, a person starts at the bottom amd then is eventually awarded the title of Master/Mistress by others rather than just claiming it for themself. There are other ways to get similar amounts of knowledge and skill, this is just one way. Not The One Way.
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:48 am
I view it as "there is no one way to do it, but there are ways to fail horribly, such as being an abusive a*****e".
I like the idea of earning the respect, but I don't understand the way that many of these families go about it, and it's far too close to the imaginary "master is better than dom, dom is better than sub, slave is better than sub" ranking.
I believe that a Master/Mistress is someone who owns a slave or some form of human property, I know everyone has different definitions. I also think they can be titles given between people within a dynamic because it fits their kink, that's fine with me. I don't think Master/Mistress is any "higher ranking" or more esteemed than Dom/Domme, just as I don't think that "slave" is a more shiny/special label than "submissive". I really dislike that imaginary ranking system, and it seems to go along with OTW, and sometimes fledgling newbies who "aspire" to what they view as the "great leather tradition". One label is not better than another, they just are as they are and you are what you are, it's better to enjoy who you are than to measure yourself up against an imaginary ranking.
I don't think that a good way to teach a new Dom is to try and to force him/her to be something he/she is not. If a person is not a sub, then forcing them to try and be will not teach them to be a better dom. I do think that bottoming in scenes (which is not the same as being someone's sub, IMO) can teach a lot, but only within certain limits. Everyone feels pain differently - a 2 on my pain scale might be a 7 for someone else. Every bottoming partner is different, as is every sub. Their human needs are different but so are their desires, likes, dislikes and tolerances.
I've always been curious as to why submissives aren't often pushed into trying to be doms/dommes in order to "better learn" and "understand" what it's like to be "dominant", but I suspect that that's because actually, when those people say "Newbie Dom, you must be a sub now to learn what it's like!" they actually me "go experience getting hit/stuck with needles/tied up so you know what it feels like".
(Will type better when not restricted to tiny phone screen! I'm rambling and tired from moving!)
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Mystic White Raven Captain
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:53 am
Aaah I feel you about the phone. That's all I have at the moment until I get home in a few hours.
Anyway, in Leather, I don't think there is anything imaginary about the ranking system, except it's not that one is better than another, it is that they are on different levels. Master outranks Dom, Dom outranks slave, slave outranks submissive.
Of course their rank system only works for those in the Leather lifestyle. It wouldn't work to compare a slave in Leather to a sub outside of it because maybe the sub is somehow more subby just doesn't like the title "slave". Ranks and titles only work within the system they stem from.
You are quite possibly right about newbie doms being told to go be hit rather than actually be submissive. One of the other goals when it comes to the Master/Mistress in training "sub-ing" is also to teach the newbie the rules and protocols that are expected in Leather. Yeah, maybe they could just hand them a rule book but it wouldn't be the same. Plus, it probably is a right of passage for Leather folk. If someone wants to be a Leather Master/Mistress, they have to go through this process because it is what all the others had to go through. You don't want to do it? That is perfectly alright, you can still be whatever you want, it just won't be Leather.
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:05 am
I'll give my opinion as a Leatherperson as well as someone who is being mentored by a Leather family with 40+ years of experience.
Anyone who says that a person must first "be a submissive" doesn't understand the roles to begin with. We have a ranking system, yes, but the reality is that you cannot "be" something unless you are that something. You can emulate what you believe to be a Dominant or a submissive, but if it is not who you are at your core, then you won't ever be able to relate to a submissive no matter how much you bottom or how much you serve another.
What I do think is important is learning humbleness and service. It isn't so much about serving a person as their submissive or slave but serving a community or a family in whatever ways they may need. For example, I serve my Leather family in a number of ways, when they ask for it, I do it, because I respect them greatly. This doesn't make me less of a Sir nor does it make me a boy. Sometimes, Sir (the head of our family) will call me "boy" but he does so playfully.
It doesn't turn me on to serve, but it does fulfill a need of mine to be of service to my Leather family. That's the main difference, I feel, and what really shows what a person's destination is. Does it turn you on to be in service? Or does it turn you on to have someone under your boot? And I don't mean turn on in just the gives an erection or makes you wet way. A turn on could be something that makes you yearn or lust for more.
No station is better or worse than the other. I've met upstanding submissives and shitty Dominants. But we do have a hierarchy for a reason. Decisions defer to the D-types, for a reason. That is your own job to figure out what that reason is for you. But my Leather is very particular.
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Mystic White Raven Captain
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:37 am
Perverse Narcotic I'll give my opinion as a Leatherperson as well as someone who is being mentored by a Leather family with 40+ years of experience. Anyone who says that a person must first "be a submissive" doesn't understand the roles to begin with. We have a ranking system, yes, but the reality is that you cannot "be" something unless you are that something. You can emulate what you believe to be a Dominant or a submissive, but if it is not who you are at your core, then you won't ever be able to relate to a submissive no matter how much you bottom or how much you serve another. What I do think is important is learning humbleness and service. It isn't so much about serving a person as their submissive or slave but serving a community or a family in whatever ways they may need. For example, I serve my Leather family in a number of ways, when they ask for it, I do it, because I respect them greatly. This doesn't make me less of a Sir nor does it make me a boy. Sometimes, Sir (the head of our family) will call me "boy" but he does so playfully. It doesn't turn me on to serve, but it does fulfill a need of mine to be of service to my Leather family. That's the main difference, I feel, and what really shows what a person's destination is. Does it turn you on to be in service? Or does it turn you on to have someone under your boot? And I don't mean turn on in just the gives an erection or makes you wet way. A turn on could be something that makes you yearn or lust for more. No station is better or worse than the other. I've met upstanding submissives and shitty Dominants. But we do have a hierarchy for a reason. Decisions defer to the D-types, for a reason. That is your own job to figure out what that reason is for you. But my Leather is very particular. Well said. Thanks for chiming in!
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