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Struggling to find a path

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iDERZY

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:48 pm


I have struggled with trying to find a path since I was 10 years old about when I really lost my faith in the spiritual due to my father's suicide. Years afterward, I struggled with going from Christian to Atheist to Pagan to Agnostic back to Christian and then back to Agnostic. Finally, I landed back on the Pagan roots because I do have a strong Pagan rooted family line, which I know my spiritual energy is very high.
I had a reading in which the level was read through a machine where my spiritual energy was equal in mind, body, and spirit, but also off the charts from what the machine could read.

I have felt and had a few experiences that made me feel sure that there is something more, but I have the constant blocks of memories as well as fear and doubt that these things exist. My parents would constantly tell me that I could not believe certain things if I wanted to have certain things in my life, such as if I wanted to explore the Christian path, I could not play video games or read manga and watch anime, etc. Even though I am 22 years old now, I still have those things in my mind that I am to restrict myself based on what areas I want to explore or that if I try to explore the areas I am interested in, my family (such as my mother or father) would not support it because it isn't what they thing is ideal.

Background on my parents is that my mother is a Wiccan and follows more of that practice as well as goes back into her Pagan roots as well; however, her mentality is still very much back into her Christian beliefs such as "My way is the only right way". She follows this idea in telling me what I need and what I should do for rituals and ceremonies, while on the same token, telling me to do what feels right. I know that not all Christians are that way, but that is how she was when she was in that community.

My step-dad calls himself Christian, but does not believe in Jesus as the son of god and such. He doesn't really agree with the Pagan aspects of my mom's beliefs and feels uncomfortable with it. He sometimes believes that she or I, when I lived with them, would bring in negativity by doing things we don't really understand. My mother believes he has potential, but knows he does not want to explore that.

Because my step-dad and my parents have both expressed to me that I should not get into aspects of the spiritual realm that are negative or potentially dangerous, I should not explore those aspects of what I would like to experience to get a better understanding of my beliefs. I would meditate and try to call upon the spirits that I felt around me, and I would be told that was dangerous, even if I used the proper protection. I would be told not to do those things, and eventually I stopped doing anything spiritual.

Now, years after that issue, my parents both have come to me and just want me to find something to believe in because they realize that not allowing me to explore my spiritual side has now left me to feeling distress and depression. I am lost because I don't know what to do to bring back the feelings I had before. I want a community, but at the same time, the experiences I had with my parents as well as the experiences I've had with asking advice from people have left me feeling as though if I do come up with some connection, I will be told it is wrong and that it is not right.

This feeling leaves me to doubt that what I feel with spirits or when I go into a trance or when I feel the spiritual energy around me take form of the energy that is within my spirit, that I'm just crazy. I've seen a therapist and she said I'm not psychotic or crazy. I don't hear voices that tell me to kill or hurt people. She sees that I am depressed and I'm working on the depression. I feel and see visions, but I feel afraid and doubtful of them. I become a skeptic of what I see and feel and know that I'm not crazy.

Another part of me is afraid if I try to explore those areas, what if there is danger...

I have two deities that I have a connection with, both are female; however, I was married with the Horned God as well since he is the Patron God of my husband. My Patron deities are Inanna-Ishtar and Artemis/Dianna.

I've been told to ask the Fae for help, but I always feel lost on what to do. When I meditate I don't feel like I have a motive. I don't know what I should be doing. I don't know what to do anymore. I ask for advice and people who tend to give it jump on me, acting like I just want the answers given to me, but how am I to learn to find the answers on my own if I have no idea what to do or what to meditate on? I want to find the answers myself, but I need direction. I need perspective. If there was a class or college I could do that didn't require money (since right now I'm still in the training/orientation stage of my jobs), I would love to be a part of it. I want to learn. sad I don't know what to do.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:12 am


Well, if you're "married" to a god you should probably look at following that religion first. Which horned god is it you're married to?

Otherwise, check out Hellenic and Sumerian recon, just as somewhere to start, as you already have relationships with deities from those religions. Researching those should keep you occupied for a while, anyway. I don't know anything about Sumerian religion, but here are some sources for Hellenic:
Theoi
Sponde
Temenos Theon

APPARENTLY NEITHER OF THOSE WORK ANY MORE SO I AM JUST GOING TO GO AND SMASH MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL FOR A WHILE.

As for asking the Fae for help I can't personally think of a shittier idea. Like, even if they told the truth, man, you don't know what sort of price they'd be charging for their help. Fae are tricky bastards.

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iDERZY

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:55 am


I didn't say I was married to a god. >_> I said my husband has taken The Horned God as his Patron deity. The only marriage part is that we (my husband and I) were hand fasted with their blessings and we now have a shared altar with our deities. The same deity who changes roles during the year in which my husband feels more in tune with The Green Man when he takes that role.




Sanguina Cruenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:09 am


Sanguina Cruenta
Sponde
Temenos Theon

APPARENTLY NEITHER OF THOSE WORK ANY MORE SO I AM JUST GOING TO GO AND SMASH MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL FOR A WHILE.

Yeah... I wasn't happy about those going down either. But not to fear! I think I've found more (Because I feel like I'm the only one who does research in this house cat_rolleyes )!

Hellenion
Neokoroi
eCauldron

Azra Reyne

Adding on to what San suggested about looking into Sumerian recon. I do have a link for that.
Temple of Sumer
Should be good.

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Morgandria
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:09 am


https://sites.google.com/site/spondelibation/
Sponde is there now.

http://elaphos.tumblr.com/resources
Elaphos keeps a fairly good list of Greek resources.

Azra, you have two patrons who are very disparate and diverse in culture; it virtually dictates that either you're going to end up practicing two paths in parallel. I would not advise trying to combine what's appropriate for Artemis and Inanna individually into a single path - it's not really appropriate or respectful. You will either find established religious practices for both the Hellenic religion and the Sumerian cultures that you can practice in parallel, or you're going to end up creating your own methods for honouring those specific deities in an personal, eclectic manner.

Also, it's worth noting that Artemis and Diana are very different as deities - one being Hellenic, the other Roman. Diana has different aspects and personality to Artemis. Ishtar and Inanna are very similar to one another, but there are differences between Sumerian and Babylonian practices. You
may find it helpful to research for your own path if you are more specific about the culture you're drawing from.

There's nothing that says you have to incorporate any sort of worship of your husband's deity into your own path, even if He was called to witness your marriage rites. It's not something that lays any claim or obligation on you. You may find that as your path develops, it may not be appropriate for you to share a shrine with him. And if his deity is the soft-poly general 'Horned God' who is very much a fertility god, forcing Artemis/Diana to share a space with him may in fact be offensive or insulting to Her.

When you say 'fae' here in the guild, we assume you mean the 'Fae', spirits native to lands formerly inhabited by Celtic-speaking nations. 'Fae' are not creatures you want to work with, in general. They have an antipathy towards humanity, and are not cute helpful cherubs with wings, or sparkling pixie-dust covered gossamer beauties. They run the gamut from unearthly elfin beauty to twisty nasty dirty little buggers. And in general, they do not give a fart about our health or well-being. We generally hold that it's best to avoid them entirely.

However, people sometimes mean 'fae' as the general spirits of land, sea, and sky, that could be well-intentioned or favorable to an individual. Your parents advice was well-intentioned. You need to have caution - you work with spirits at your own peril. Remember that the spirit world is not at all what it seems, you cannot trust your senses, and that until you're familiar with its' workings it's very easy to get lost, in trouble, or mislead. Taking food or drink can be as binding as an oath, and is dangerous. Don't give anything or anyone your true name, and don't assume you're getting one from a spirit. You may not even be seeing a true shape. Learn to protect yourself if you're going to venture into that territory, or allow spirits into yours.

BUT - that is not to say you should not, or can not. If it is truly a calling for you, then hone your skills and work with spirits. Just be aware that you weren't being given bad advice from your parents - they were just concerned for your well-being.

Read. Read about your gods, and their cultures, and their history. Read books about what interests you spiritually. If you have interest in practicing magic, read about that too. Read critically - challenge what you read. Don't just read books from occult publishers and the witchcraft shelf. Read primary sources, read scholarly books if you can. Absorb all that you can. The public library can be your friend, and don't forget about using interlibrary loan, to seek out books your particular branch may not have themselves.

If something calls to you, explore its' practice. Try things out. It's ok if it doesn't work for you, and you move past it. You won't know until you try.

Be respectful of closed cultures and religions. Don't appropriate things from them, or place them out of context just because you think they're neat.

Most of all, be prepared to -work-. Making your own path takes many years, and is not easy or simple - but it is very rewarding, if you're prepared to put in the effort. It can be frustrating. You will sometimes find yourself feeling as if you've got nothing under your feet to stand on. That's ok. Everything evolves, and it needs to. Persevere.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:21 pm


Morgandria
https://sites.google.com/site/spondelibation/
Sponde is there now.

http://elaphos.tumblr.com/resources
Elaphos keeps a fairly good list of Greek resources.

Azra, you have two patrons who are very disparate and diverse in culture; it virtually dictates that either you're going to end up practicing two paths in parallel. I would not advise trying to combine what's appropriate for Artemis and Inanna individually into a single path - it's not really appropriate or respectful. You will either find established religious practices for both the Hellenic religion and the Sumerian cultures that you can practice in parallel, or you're going to end up creating your own methods for honouring those specific deities in an personal, eclectic manner.

Also, it's worth noting that Artemis and Diana are very different as deities - one being Hellenic, the other Roman. Diana has different aspects and personality to Artemis. Ishtar and Inanna are very similar to one another, but there are differences between Sumerian and Babylonian practices. You
may find it helpful to research for your own path if you are more specific about the culture you're drawing from.

There's nothing that says you have to incorporate any sort of worship of your husband's deity into your own path, even if He was called to witness your marriage rites. It's not something that lays any claim or obligation on you. You may find that as your path develops, it may not be appropriate for you to share a shrine with him. And if his deity is the soft-poly general 'Horned God' who is very much a fertility god, forcing Artemis/Diana to share a space with him may in fact be offensive or insulting to Her.

When you say 'fae' here in the guild, we assume you mean the 'Fae', spirits native to lands formerly inhabited by Celtic-speaking nations. 'Fae' are not creatures you want to work with, in general. They have an antipathy towards humanity, and are not cute helpful cherubs with wings, or sparkling pixie-dust covered gossamer beauties. They run the gamut from unearthly elfin beauty to twisty nasty dirty little buggers. And in general, they do not give a fart about our health or well-being. We generally hold that it's best to avoid them entirely.

However, people sometimes mean 'fae' as the general spirits of land, sea, and sky, that could be well-intentioned or favorable to an individual. Your parents advice was well-intentioned. You need to have caution - you work with spirits at your own peril. Remember that the spirit world is not at all what it seems, you cannot trust your senses, and that until you're familiar with its' workings it's very easy to get lost, in trouble, or mislead. Taking food or drink can be as binding as an oath, and is dangerous. Don't give anything or anyone your true name, and don't assume you're getting one from a spirit. You may not even be seeing a true shape. Learn to protect yourself if you're going to venture into that territory, or allow spirits into yours.

BUT - that is not to say you should not, or can not. If it is truly a calling for you, then hone your skills and work with spirits. Just be aware that you weren't being given bad advice from your parents - they were just concerned for your well-being.

Read. Read about your gods, and their cultures, and their history. Read books about what interests you spiritually. If you have interest in practicing magic, read about that too. Read critically - challenge what you read. Don't just read books from occult publishers and the witchcraft shelf. Read primary sources, read scholarly books if you can. Absorb all that you can. The public library can be your friend, and don't forget about using interlibrary loan, to seek out books your particular branch may not have themselves.

If something calls to you, explore its' practice. Try things out. It's ok if it doesn't work for you, and you move past it. You won't know until you try.

Be respectful of closed cultures and religions. Don't appropriate things from them, or place them out of context just because you think they're neat.

Most of all, be prepared to -work-. Making your own path takes many years, and is not easy or simple - but it is very rewarding, if you're prepared to put in the effort. It can be frustrating. You will sometimes find yourself feeling as if you've got nothing under your feet to stand on. That's ok. Everything evolves, and it needs to. Persevere.


You assume that I believe in organized religion when I do not. I do not believe that deities are bound to only a religion and cannot be made Patron outside of that religion.

I had typed up a response, but it would only make me look like an a**-hat. I will leave my response that I stated above and that will be it. Thank you for your words.

iDERZY

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:42 pm


Morgandria
http://elaphos.tumblr.com/resources
Elaphos keeps a fairly good list of Greek resources.

That's where I ended up getting some of my links from. But for some reason I hadn't bookmarked that one cat_sweatdrop
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:11 pm


Azra Reyne


You assume that I believe in organized religion when I do not. I do not believe that deities are bound to only a religion and cannot be made Patron outside of that religion.

I had typed up a response, but it would only make me look like an a**-hat. I will leave my response that I stated above and that will be it. Thank you for your words.


I didn't assume anything. I made a statement that suggested there were two available options: work with an established path, or start your own. I did say you were free to make your own eclectic path. If you're not into organized religion, that's fine. Create what works for you - so long as you do your homework, do it respectfully and avoid misappropriating practices from closed religions and cultures. But if you're trying to suggest you can play mix and match with cultures, deities, and religious practices to suit yourself without care for the appropriateness of doing so, well...I respectfully (and vehemently) disagree. Being an intelligent and respectful eclectic is important.

I do have a certain amount of concern with your statement 'made Patron'. I hope it's merely a case of awkward wording, here. Generally speaking, few people are willing to accept that a 'patron' that an individual chooses for themselves is a valid one. A Patron chooses you - literally, a patron is one who bestows patronage, who gives an individual something in exchange for their service. It's not the kind of relationship you can force upon a deity - at best, we can choose to honour a god or goddess, and they may respond to that however they like. Sometimes they will choose to get to know us deeper and develop a more personal relationship. Sometimes they will choose merely to have a working relationship, like a professional doing work for a client. Sometimes they are indifferent to it and will largely ignore you. And sometimes they will tell you to leave them alone.

I was in no way implying that patronage happens only within certain religions. Patronage is entirely a personal spiritual experience, whether or not an individual frames that experience within a specific religion or not. It is, by and large, UPG (unless it's recognized and verified by a community in which an individual serves that maintains its' own standards by which to measure such things).

I am left feeling as if you didn't really understand what I wrote above - you're not connecting with the intent of my words. But since you don't wish to interact further, I'll leave you in peace. I'm sorry there are no easier answers for you in my reply.

Morgandria
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iDERZY

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:23 pm


Morgandria
Azra Reyne


You assume that I believe in organized religion when I do not. I do not believe that deities are bound to only a religion and cannot be made Patron outside of that religion.

I had typed up a response, but it would only make me look like an a**-hat. I will leave my response that I stated above and that will be it. Thank you for your words.


I didn't assume anything. I made a statement that suggested there were two available options: work with an established path, or start your own. I did say you were free to make your own eclectic path. If you're not into organized religion, that's fine. Create what works for you - so long as you do your homework, do it respectfully and avoid misappropriating practices from closed religions and cultures. But if you're trying to suggest you can play mix and match with cultures, deities, and religious practices to suit yourself without care for the appropriateness of doing so, well...I respectfully (and vehemently) disagree. Being an intelligent and respectful eclectic is important.

I do have a certain amount of concern with your statement 'made Patron'. I hope it's merely a case of awkward wording, here. Generally speaking, few people are willing to accept that a 'patron' that an individual chooses for themselves is a valid one. A Patron chooses you - literally, a patron is one who bestows patronage, who gives an individual something in exchange for their service. It's not the kind of relationship you can force upon a deity - at best, we can choose to honour a god or goddess, and they may respond to that however they like. Sometimes they will choose to get to know us deeper and develop a more personal relationship. Sometimes they will choose merely to have a working relationship, like a professional doing work for a client. Sometimes they are indifferent to it and will largely ignore you. And sometimes they will tell you to leave them alone.

I was in no way implying that patronage happens only within certain religions. Patronage is entirely a personal spiritual experience, whether or not an individual frames that experience within a specific religion or not. It is, by and large, UPG (unless it's recognized and verified by a community in which an individual serves that maintains its' own standards by which to measure such things).

I am left feeling as if you didn't really understand what I wrote above - you're not connecting with the intent of my words. But since you don't wish to interact further, I'll leave you in peace. I'm sorry there are no easier answers for you in my reply.


It is better sometimes for me to leave a conversation before ill words are stated. I am sorry that I took your words as if you meant ill intent. The internet does not allow for proper communication at times. Your post, regardless if you meant it or not, came off to me, meaning this is what I got from it, as the attempt to tell me that I must be a part of the religion to believe in or ask for support from a deity, particular ones that are in a relationship with myself. The use of the wording is an awkward wording. Yes, Ishtar came to me and told me that I am hers. That I am her follower and I am in her protection. I respect her and I ask for blessings, thank her, and invite her to be a part of my life as much as possible because I want that connection. Many times, when I do research on her, I find connections to Inanna and most sources that are even primary that I find tell me to look towards Inanna for more information.

Now, even though I respect Inanna-Ishtar, I also must respect the call from the moon and the lunar essence because I also have energy that is drawn through the moon and the phases of the moon encompasses the rise and fall of my energy levels. I feel more energy when the moon is full and I don't feel as much of a connection when it is new or "empty". Hence why now in the past few days as the moon went through the New Moon phase, I began to feel drained. This isn't something conscious I do so it isn't my putting emphasis on the moon and the essence from the lunar body. This is where I have the connection with Artemis/Diana. In every reference and source that I have researched (because I have researched and I do it continously), the author and such will refer to Artemis and Diana as close relation. I have also researched in another deity who I felt has possibly come to me in a vision in the same fashion that Ishtar has as well. Selene is referenced to appear in pure white or atleast have white face and ride a horse pulled chariot. I have seen this in such a vision, and believed it to be another deity. I could very well be in error and will need to meditate on this.

I cannot ignore connections I have, so I will have to make my own path were I recognize and show respect to these deities.

I felt as if you were insulting my personal beliefs and how I feel as well as what I've done currently and in the past. The deities that I work with have not made it known that they are not comfortable with my selection of placing them in the same space. Even with them being in the same space of The Horned God. And if you want to know what Horned God I am referencing too, here you go.

I realize that may not have been your intent to insult or to come off as insulting, and I am sorry that I took it in that manner. I took time to reread your post and I see where I was in error.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:39 pm


Well, I'm a hard polytheist, not a soft polytheist, so I don't conflate Gods into one God or treat them as 'aspects'. To me, there's many Horned Gods, all individual entities rather than different names for the same thing. Saying 'The Horned God' to me doesn't tend to mean a whole lot until I know specifically which one we're talking about. wink Likewise, I can't really easily comprehend the way you're approaching your goddesses, since I don't believe that goddesses being similar makes them the same - for me, they're all different and unique individuals, just like people. For me, Artemis and Diana have very different personalities and characteristics. I couldn't consider them the same goddess. But to each their own. 3nodding

So! Not criticizing or invalidating your approach or your choices. I'm just not on the same page as you, really.

And back to the importance of reading critically with sources, no matter the material or your particular theology:
Bear in mind when you read that neo-pagan authors (and scholarly but lazy anthropologists and historians) have a -very- bad tendency to rely on shallow or weak research, to cherry-pick from sources without revealing those sources in wider scope when they contradict the point they want to make, and to revise history to make it more accommodating or validating to their own bias. Just because things are similar, does not make them the same, and it's a common failing or logic and reasoning that neo-pagan authors (and said lazy scholars) fall back on too often.

Simply put, you can't trust everything you read. Sometimes, you can't trust any of it.

Morgandria
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iDERZY

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:10 pm


Morgandria
Well, I'm a hard polytheist, not a soft polytheist, so I don't conflate Gods into one God or treat them as 'aspects'. To me, there's many Horned Gods, all individual entities rather than different names for the same thing. Saying 'The Horned God' to me doesn't tend to mean a whole lot until I know specifically which one we're talking about. wink Likewise, I can't really easily comprehend the way you're approaching your goddesses, since I don't believe that goddesses being similar makes them the same - for me, they're all different and unique individuals, just like people. For me, Artemis and Diana have very different personalities and characteristics. I couldn't consider them the same goddess. But to each their own. 3nodding

So! Not criticizing or invalidating your approach or your choices. I'm just not on the same page as you, really.

And back to the importance of reading critically with sources, no matter the material or your particular theology:
Bear in mind when you read that neo-pagan authors (and scholarly but lazy anthropologists and historians) have a -very- bad tendency to rely on shallow or weak research, to cherry-pick from sources without revealing those sources in wider scope when they contradict the point they want to make, and to revise history to make it more accommodating or validating to their own bias. Just because things are similar, does not make them the same, and it's a common failing or logic and reasoning that neo-pagan authors (and said lazy scholars) fall back on too often.

Simply put, you can't trust everything you read. Sometimes, you can't trust any of it.


Quite understandable. Hence why generally I find myself lost, because I bare in mind that same thought. I cannot necessarily trust what I read and I can't necessarily trust what I experience for face value. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Ishtar has stated to me that she is known in other tongues as Inanna or at least I get the impression of that through feeling and thought. I, however, can see as you are stating that not all deities (Gods and Goddesses alike) that are similar are not necessarily the same. Although it may not seem that way, I do not entirely see Artemis and Diana as the same Goddess. I see them as if they are kindred and kinda sister like, if that even remotely explains that.

I can say with up most honesty that I am still very on the fence about Artemis and Diana because of recent research and as much as I have a connection with the moon, I, however, do not feel that same connection when I state the name of these deities. Which is why when I refer to these Goddesses, I always put a " / " because that is my way of saying that they are two different ones and because I am still working on the relationship with the deity that calls to me from the lunar essence. If that explains that. I'm still learning and sometimes in my eagerness, I jump to conclusions. wink

>_< Can't really say I jump to conclusions with Ishtar though. She pretty much called me with full intent on my being under her. That shortly happened after I was given a gift of a necklace that has Ishtar on it. I felt constantly drawn to the necklace, in part of the look of it, but also because I feel like it was important. The necklace laid there in the shop for actually about a year or so when someone finally purchased it for me and gave it to me for Valentine's Day. smile

I will say in the research for Selene, I did experience a bit of lightness, so I am going to meditate on her and see about that avenue.

I quite understand your reasoning and point. smile
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:20 pm


Azra Reyne
I didn't say I was married to a god. >_> I said my husband has taken The Horned God as his Patron deity. The only marriage part is that we (my husband and I) were hand fasted with their blessings and we now have a shared altar with our deities. The same deity who changes roles during the year in which my husband feels more in tune with The Green Man when he takes that role.


Sanguina Cruenta


Sorry! I read that totally wrong sweatdrop Mea culpa - bit of brainfog, I suspect.

Anyway I found Sponde! It had changed domains.

Oh. Morg already mentioned that.

ANYWAY. The moon! There are various deities of the moon and if you wish to worship a moon deity, there's a lot to explore! Have a look through and see what's - and Who's - interesting.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:26 pm


Sanguina Cruenta
Azra Reyne
I didn't say I was married to a god. >_> I said my husband has taken The Horned God as his Patron deity. The only marriage part is that we (my husband and I) were hand fasted with their blessings and we now have a shared altar with our deities. The same deity who changes roles during the year in which my husband feels more in tune with The Green Man when he takes that role.


Sanguina Cruenta


Sorry! I read that totally wrong sweatdrop Mea culpa - bit of brainfog, I suspect.

Anyway I found Sponde! It had changed domains.


smile It's okay. I understand the confusion. My wording wasn't very clear. Thank you for the link.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:43 am


Morgandria
Quote:
Most of all, be prepared to -work-. Making your own path takes many years, and is not easy or simple - but it is very rewarding, if you're prepared to put in the effort. It can be frustrating. You will sometimes find yourself feeling as if you've got nothing under your feet to stand on. That's ok. Everything evolves, and it needs to. Persevere.

As Morgandria says it takes many years, I have been following my own path for 40 years, and it is still changing and I'm still learning, When I first started on my path there were not many books or things on paganism especially in a little town library so I read many books on mythology etc today it is so much easier with the internet but don't believe everything you read on the net, there are so many sites on wicca, paganism etc and some of them are complete bullshit. I have come this far with a lot of meditating and a lot of steps forward and ten steps back, listening to people and studying, sometime I have made mistakes and even today I will not say I know everything because like I said before I am still learning and sometimes I stumble along my path.

willowgothika

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