|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:20 pm
Hey guys!
Im opening a new discussion, for 1 specific thing. Do you think, that a martial artist, has the right to create a named discipline as your own?
Ex: 1:Bruce Lee created Jeet Kuun Do (wrong spelling i know), as his custom martial art.
2: Creating a custom/ modified version of a martial art. Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo, a moderation of kempo made by a japanese/american martial artist. He immigrated from japan to america, and taught a moderation of kempo
Do you think that anyone can do this? Not to such a extreme, but in the general principle?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:10 am
Italian-420 Hey guys!
Im opening a new discussion, for 1 specific thing. Do you think, that a martial artist, has the right to create a named discipline as your own?
Ex: 1:Bruce Lee created Jeet Kuun Do (wrong spelling i know), as his custom martial art.
2: Creating a custom/ modified version of a martial art. Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo, a moderation of kempo made by a japanese/american martial artist. He immigrated from japan to america, and taught a moderation of kempo
Do you think that anyone can do this? Not to such a extreme, but in the general principle? A quick note, Bruce Lee created Jun Fan Gung Fu, which he later applied the Jeet Kune Do philosophy to. Jeet Kune Do itself is not a martial art, but a way of approaching the martial arts to make them more effective. Just a little terminology correction, your point is still extremely valid. I think that your point is endemic to the martial arts as a whole. On a small scale, every person who has ever studied a martial art has had to take what they learned and adapt it to their own needs. For instance, I am a large and powerful individual with little need for much of the finesse found in some arts. Noting this, I have to fight the urge not to "cheat" when practicing traditionally but when I have to actually defend myself I don't really hold back. In so doing, I have adapted a self defensive style that is traditional but makes maximum use of my natural physical gifts. On a more macroscopic level, the creation of new martial arts is no simple undertaking. Citing the examples stated above, the hours that Jun Fan Gung Fu and Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo's founders must have put in to train and then modify their disciplines to found entirely new schools of thought must have been staggering. I cite the example of Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido who went through decades of training in several different martial arts before deciding that he wanted a different approach. He then distilled the techniques he thought he needed from those other martial arts, applied his personal experience and philosophy and *POOF* aikido was born. Likewise for that matter Muay Thai, TKD, and for that matter MMA. The point I'm rather inefficiently trying to reach with this rant is that it is extremely hard at this point to generate a new martial art due to the lack of need. As a rule, new martial arts at this point address less the martial aspect of self defense and more the personal philosophy of those who created it. Case in point, again, is aikido. Morihei Ueshiba wanted a martial art that was gentle, where the point was to defend yourself without harm coming to yourself or your attacker. Imi Lichtenfeld (the founder of Krav Maga) was looking for an effective system that could quickly and efficiently be taught to anyone so that they could defend themselves in the rough and tumble streets of Germany and later Israel. The founder of Muay Thai wanted to beat the crumbcake out of the Burmese. And the people who developed the MMA system were looking for a fighting format that could serve not only as self defense but an effective and safe form of entertainment similar to gladiatorial combat. Anymore, nobody is really inventing anything new, they're simply rehashing old ground to service their own needs, which is fine but doesn't necessarily mean creating a whole new martial art. That could change drastically, however. Man is really really good at many things, but the best seems to be finding new and exciting ways to kill other men. The creation of the knife meant finding ways to defend against it, likewise the spear, likewise the sword, the gun, and so on and so forth. To take the nerdy route on this one, suppose someone were to invent the lightsaber. Someone would have to invent a martial art to utilize the new tool, and likewise someone would have to invent a way to defend against it unarmed, with other weapons, and with a lightsaber. Basically, the evolution of the martial arts is predicated upon the need to thwart other martial arts. Okay, I'm done ranting now. New styles can happen, but they're not tremendously likely to and the necessity for them lies in a questionable gray area.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:15 pm
quiet_way A quick note, Bruce Lee created Jun Fan Gung Fu, which he later applied the Jeet Kune Do philosophy to. Jeet Kune Do itself is not a martial art, but a way of approaching the martial arts to make them more effective. Just a little terminology correction, your point is still extremely valid. I think that your point is endemic to the martial arts as a whole. On a small scale, every person who has ever studied a martial art has had to take what they learned and adapt it to their own needs. For instance, I am a large and powerful individual with little need for much of the finesse found in some arts. "... makes maximum use of my natural physical gifts." I saw what you mean with Bruce's philosophy. I also see what your are saying in the small scale, and that's what I want to apply it to. For an example, I take your skill, say Karate, and atune it to your ability, "large and powerful" and just..put a prefix or suffix to define it. (following the martial art's language for formallity.) EX: San Kerio Bikutori Karate, meaning ( english from japanese romaji) 3 Paths of Victory Karate.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:47 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:05 pm
well i do believe in the constant evolution of martial arts so im not against creations of other arts but quiet makes a great point and gives in clear views of what goes into it. long hours of developing techniques and test the effectiveness and where the styles general focus will be based off. will it follow more along the lines of a kung-fu design but implement the more offensive traits of MT. (just two examples styles someone may try to hybrid) will it run a belt system like KF or not like MT. and what would its philosophy be based around? it to me sounds like a long a tedious in yet rewarding experience should it be successful. on my own opinion i cant see myself creating a martial art of its own off of the styles i practice in but i wont stop myself from teaching boxing or Akido wile running a class of a different art regardless of what federation im part of says.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:20 pm
Thanks, i appreciate the input smile Im going to start working hard, and training harder
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:41 pm
some arts been popping up around cities each one seems rather interesting. one my friend at my boxing gym i train at also trains in an art called Sanbo (not the russian style sambo) but this style consists of Kung fu sansu - Boxing- and catch wrestling (ie the name sanbo ((i guess it leaves the catch wrestle out of the name) from the looks of it it looks very dynamic) ille find out more about it and post it up on the styles forum.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:52 pm
That's one of the greatest things about martial arts. The actual fact that they vary, and are evolving/appearing so abbundantly
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:21 pm
quiet_way A quick note, Bruce Lee created Jun Fan Gung Fu, which he later applied the Jeet Kune Do philosophy to. Jeet Kune Do itself is not a martial art, but a way of approaching the martial arts to make them more effective. Just a little terminology correction, your point is still extremely valid. Just as a (questionable?) addition, the Jeet Kune Do philosophy seems to me more like a movement initiated by Bruce to inspire people to stop being so goddamned caught up in their own martial arts style, and to not hesitate in incorporating whatever one has learnt into how one would defend themselves. (Which was how people in the olden days would've done anyway, eh?) Quote: The point I'm rather inefficiently trying to reach with this rant is that it is extremely hard at this point to generate a new martial art due to the lack of need. It's not so much the "lack of need," but the "lack of demand," in my opinion. The "need" is to defend oneself, and that need will always exist. However, the creation of public security (e.g. the police), the creation, adherence and enforcement of the rule of law, tacit agreement of some form of social norms (that are also enforced by the community) has pretty much lowered the priority of "learning how to defend oneself." "Why should I put in the time and effort to defend myself in the cops can do it for me and the community will punish these evildoers without me lifting a finger?"Thus, the decrease in demand. And because of the decrease in demand, less martial arts styles pop up. Anyway, back to the topic: does someone have a right to create a named discipline as their own? Sure, why not. Let's say I pick my nose with my index finger because I copied my dad when I was a kid. But then I decided to do it upside-down because I believed it would be conducive to let the booger fall out. Let's say my dad called his action "picking nose, Charlie-style." Since I modified it to be done in an upside-down manner, what's stopping me from calling my way "picking nose, Triste-style?" Sure, I'm simplifying the whole thing--but the point is there. The main problem, in my opinion, isn't the whole "customizing a set way of doing things to suit oneself," but doing of that without referencing where it came from. Because to not acknowledge the source is to pass it off as something one created from scratch; and that's usually not the case. And, it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. Just my two cents. ninja
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:44 pm
Triste quiet_way A quick note, Bruce Lee created Jun Fan Gung Fu, which he later applied the Jeet Kune Do philosophy to. Jeet Kune Do itself is not a martial art, but a way of approaching the martial arts to make them more effective. Just a little terminology correction, your point is still extremely valid. Just as a (questionable?) addition, the Jeet Kune Do philosophy seems to me more like a movement initiated by Bruce to inspire people to stop being so goddamned caught up in their own martial arts style, and to not hesitate in incorporating whatever one has learnt into how one would defend themselves. (Which was how people in the olden days would've done anyway, eh?) Quote: The point I'm rather inefficiently trying to reach with this rant is that it is extremely hard at this point to generate a new martial art due to the lack of need. It's not so much the "lack of need," but the "lack of demand," in my opinion. The "need" is to defend oneself, and that need will always exist. However, the creation of public security (e.g. the police), the creation, adherence and enforcement of the rule of law, tacit agreement of some form of social norms (that are also enforced by the community) has pretty much lowered the priority of "learning how to defend oneself." "Why should I put in the time and effort to defend myself in the cops can do it for me and the community will punish these evildoers without me lifting a finger?"Thus, the decrease in demand. And because of the decrease in demand, less martial arts styles pop up. Anyway, back to the topic: does someone have a right to create a named discipline as their own? Sure, why not. Let's say I pick my nose with my index finger because I copied my dad when I was a kid. But then I decided to do it upside-down because I believed it would be conducive to let the booger fall out. Let's say my dad called his action "picking nose, Charlie-style." Since I modified it to be done in an upside-down manner, what's stopping me from calling my way "picking nose, Triste-style?" Sure, I'm simplifying the whole thing--but the point is there. The main problem, in my opinion, isn't the whole "customizing a set way of doing things to suit oneself," but doing of that without referencing where it came from. Because to not acknowledge the source is to pass it off as something one created from scratch; and that's usually not the case. And, it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. Just my two cents. ninja Well said.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:40 pm
Very well said. I do agree that "the lack of demand" is the reason why new martial arts dont occur as much. But allong the lines of saying "it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. " I dont belive. Its not like I would take credit for the style as a whole. In the way of the nose-picking, is more along the lines of what I mean. For example: If the style I was taught involves striking straight, with the ball of my foot, I change it, with my style, to kick with my whole foot. Just because I desire to use more power for that kick.
If anything I say is "it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. " then I'll stop my training immediatly and forget this prospect
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:05 am
Italian-420 Very well said. I do agree that "the lack of demand" is the reason why new martial arts dont occur as much. But allong the lines of saying "it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. " I dont belive. Its not like I would take credit for the style as a whole. In the way of the nose-picking, is more along the lines of what I mean. For example: If the style I was taught involves striking straight, with the ball of my foot, I change it, with my style, to kick with my whole foot. Just because I desire to use more power for that kick. If anything I say is "it's goddamned dishonest and disrespectful. " then I'll stop my training immediatly and forget this prospect I think I should rephrase that part. What I meant is that, "claiming a certain technique as fully being yours, when what you've done is modified something you got elsewhere with the view of making it more effective/efficient/to suit your physique, without giving credit to its source" is being disrespectful. It's like writing a report for a course at university. If you don't reference, you're making it seem as if something has become fact due to your own research. That is what I meant; sorry for the lack of clarity.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:46 pm
Alright, now I understand. And I agree, I wouldnt do that at all.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:23 pm
I would almost have gone on a minor rant myself, but the core of my belief has already been stated. I believe that someone dedicated enough could potentially find and teach their own Way. But it had better damn be something unique (or mostly so) or else you're just putting yourself on an undeserved pedestal.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:22 am
I now remember a time in boxing where a father-son combination at one time were the dominate force in the middleweight/light heavyweight division ... I am referring to Enzo and Joe Calzaghe ... what made them unique was the fact that Enzo when he became his son's trainer he had no prior experience in boxing ... he kinda just hanged out with a boxing club ... so to start from basically nothing and then in turn become the most dominate force in boxing in a while ...
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|