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Reply 2. Martial Art Styles
WMA & Historical Fencing, a brief overview. Goto Page: 1 2 3 4 [>] [»|]

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Aurturia

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:23 pm


When most people tend to think of martial arts the first images that pop into their head to be that of Bruce Lee or a bunch of macho guys wearing gis sweating in a dojo doing repetitive drills. Very few tend to think of Knights or Cavaliers, cruciform swords and rapiers.
However, Western Europe has a long tradition of both armed and unarmed combat. The very phrase "martial arts" goes back to Mars, the Roman god of war. Unfortunately unlike in the East, these fighting traditions nearly died out in Europe with the introduction of gunpowder-powered weapons. With the progression of science and ease of use of firearms, fencing often got forgotten or left by the wayside.
But some schools are making a comeback.

We are drama majors, historians, linguists, reenactors, costumers and martial artists who have come together asking a simple question. “We’ve seen it in movies and in plays, [although we know that’s all for show.] But what was it really like?”

For allot of us, We have to turn to our books.
I.33, (say "Eye-thirty-three.") Is the earliest surviving known manuscript on swordsmanship. Written in Latin by an anonymous German, the illustrated manuscript dates from about 1295. It’s name comes from its catalog number in the Tower of London. I.33 covers the use of the medieval single-handed cruciform arming sword and buckler, or small handheld shield. It was translated into German and then into English by Forgeng… in 2003.
http://freywild.ch/i33/i33en.html

Going further into the medieval period, we start to see the manuscripts for the solider. Fiore de Liberi (ca. 1350s - 1410s), was a Medieval master of arms and the earliest Italian master from whom we have an extant martial arts manual. His Flower of Battle is also the third oldest fighting manual yet discovered (after the MS I.33 and the HS 3227a), and the most extensive from the Medieval period. As such, he is one of the most significant figures in the Historical European Martial Arts. In Germany, Johannes Liechtenauer has a similar manuscript covering not only the same weapons (for the most part) as that of Fiore but the guards and wards are nearly identical. Plagiarism? Hardly. When one applies geometry and the flow of time to martial art, we learn that only physics and the desire to survive are the only true governing forces. After all, Mathematics is a universal language. Survival however, is purely instinctive. Given the same rational with the same weapons, your results are going to come out looking similar.
These manuscripts primarily tend to cover the defense against the longsword, arming sword and buckler, the rondel dagger, various pole arms, the messer or “knife” and even mounted combat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek

By the time of the European Renaissance, there are numerous surviving manuscripts by masters all over Europe. But for the most part, they all agree on this simple truth: the art of defense is a science that exists in the flow of time. Not much has changed in the principles and sciences that governed us for the last 200 years, but allot of the weapons have. In England we (still) have the backsword and George Silver reins king and defends allot of the old principles governing swordplay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Silver
At the same time, we have Italian fencing coming into England baring an interesting new tact to an old truth.

“the right or straight Line is of all other the
shortest: wherefore if a man would strike in the shortest line, it is requisite that he strike in the straight line.”
(Giacomo di Grassi, 1570.)

Or, as you may know it from 3rd grad school geometry, “the shortest distance between two points in the strait line.” Herein steps a new contender, the rapier and the armed civilian. We begin to see systems of fence that focus primarily on the thrust as the later rapier is a thrust-over-cut weapon, and the [Italian] fight starts to diverge from moving on angles and sticking more to strait lines.

Master of Fence Tom Leoni demonstrates the art of late Italian Rapier drawing from Salvator Fabris and Ridolfo Capo Ferro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncKM9-f45LE&feature=related (Part 3 of 3. Igonore the other links YouTube may give you unless you want to see it done wrong.)

Such was not always the case.
The Spanish, for example, continued to use the cercal with the aid of cup-hilted rapiers.
Don Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza and his follower, Don Luis Pacheco de Narváez would write the bible on Spanish fencing, La Verdadera Destreza. A manuscript that would be drawn upon by Spanish swordsmen and found in treatises on sabre, dulling sword and bayonet well into the 19th century. It is in a sense, perhaps the longest surviving system of western fencing passed down from generation to generation to still be practiced over the world today.
http://www.martinez-destreza.com
(Yet it’s dang hard to find somebody do it correctly on YouTube. So sorry.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destreza

There is a strong ethical side to the current teaching of Western martial arts, just as there was when it was taught in the 15th century. People weren't walking around the streets of 16th century Europe whipping out swords and fighting because someone spat on their shoes. Dueling was covered by very strict laws, even when illegal. A challenge was issued by letter, (the cartel) it was replied to by letter. Public notices were required and a field and seconds were chosen. Duels didn’t just happen. Not even overnight. Illegal street brawls did. So let me be perfectly clear. “To throw down the gauntlet” was an issue of challenge in an arena amongst knights, and slapping someone in the face with said glove, never has nor ever shall give you an upper hand in the eyes of society. Keep it on your hand where it best fits its purpose.

So, you may be wondering where it all went to sport. Well, the birth of sport fencing can be attributed to another great period of martial fencing during the time of the French revolution. Where the smallsword is the most fashionable choice of arms. It’s training weapon was the foil similar to that we recognize today in sport fencing.
In order to understand sport fencing’s birth, one needs to diverge into social life in high-society Rococo era France. So put on your powdered wig and think fluffy thoughts.

The history of fencing in France begins in the 16th century, with the adoption of Italian styles of rapier fencing. Fencing in France was developed into a sport during the 17th century, with codification of rules and terminology and a system of teaching, by masters such as Le Perche du Coudray (1635, 1676, teacher of Cyrano de Bergerac), Besnard (1653, teacher of Descartes), Philibert de la Touche (1670) and Labat of Toulouse (1690). By the enlightenment, tournaments were common and fencing itself was not only recognized and admired as a martial art, but required social grace and elegance, as one would expect in dance or courtly behavior. Gracious in defeat, Humble in victory. Dignified and graceful always. Two skillful men acting together, fight more with their heads than with their hands.- Monsieur L’Abbat, (1734)
In a social gathering, one may expect after tea to hear a book reading, a harpsichord recital and then perhaps observe a fencing match played with foils.
From a martial art, it moved onto a parlor game for both practice enjoyment. In time, it would give birth to modern sport fencing we observe today.

“It is the cultivation of this art [fencing]
that unfetters the body, strengthens it,
and makes it upright; it is it, that gives a
becoming gait, and an easy carriage,
activity and agility, grace and dignity; it
is it that opportunely awes petulance,
softens and polishes savageness and
rudeness; and animates a proper
confidence; it is it which, in teaching us
to conquer ourselves that we may be
able to conquer others, imprints respect
and gives true valor, good nature and
politeness: in fine, which makes a man
fit for society.”

-Monsieur
Olivier, a Professor of fencing in Paris
& London (circa 1771)

If you live in a major city, chances are there is a school teaching western martial arts in some manor near you. If you are on the far west coast, New York or Chicago, you are especially lucky.

www.swordforum.com
Ask many questions. Find the moderators. Be on your best behavior. I didn’t send you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7XVpucc-mI
Keep in mind, just like in the Asian martial arts, you are going to meet all kinds of people of various skills, mindset and understanding (or lack thereof) of what they are doing. Keep an open mind, but use your head.


Thank you and at your service.
-A.  
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:29 am


Aurturia
For allot of us, We have to turn to our books.
I.33, (say "Eye-thirty-three.") Is the earliest surviving known manuscript on swordsmanship. Written in Latin by an anonymous German, the illustrated manuscript dates from about 1295. It’s name comes from its catalog number in the Tower of London. I.33 covers the use of the medieval single-handed cruciform arming sword and buckler, or small handheld shield. It was translated into German and then into English by Forgeng… in 2003.
http://freywild.ch/i33/i33en.html


I had a copy of this manuscript (which I printed from my computer) for many years. It was fascinating to me to note that the methodology for recording such things in Europe was almost identical to that used to record the movements of many Oriental arts. While the drawings were somewhat crude, they conveyed well enough to point that it was possible to recreate some of the ideas. A demonstration that some methods simply work universally. Utterly fascinating.

quiet_way
Vice Captain


Aurturia

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:43 am


And It's ridiculously fun to boot. smile
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:00 pm


Aye, it has that appeal as well. I personally prefer the saber for fencing, though I'm not particularly good.

quiet_way
Vice Captain


Aurturia

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:30 am


I took a class with the Martinezs that covered [Spanish] Sabre while in Seattle for 4W one year. Working with them is the thrill of a lifetime.
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:52 am


So how would fencing match-up with say a Chinese longsword form or maybe even eskrima stickfighting ...

baka_boy1221
Captain


Aurturia

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:34 pm


Well, if it were me playing against eskrima with rapier, I'd feel realitivly confident knowing I have a 43" weapon (maybe a 17" or longer dagger too if i felt like it) with a sturdy hilt I can keep in line to my opponent at all times. The further I keep my hilt out, the larger an area of defense I have, and my point is that much closer to my target.

They're going to have a hard time closing to a distance where they can strike me with one of two 28" kaili . The Kaili is a striking weapon not suited for stabbing or jabbing (unless you want to widdle a nice point onto it. =P ) My opposition is going to generate allot of nice long tempo'ed attacks I can try to take advantage of. My concern is that I don't let him get too close. The rapier is desinged to attack while defending. (A smallsword, longsword or backsword has a bit of troble doing that but has other advantages (right tool for the right job.) The best bet of victory for an eskrima artist over the rapier would be for the eskrima-ist[?] to generate a feigned attack, subjugate my weapon in time with one kaili and then strike a blow preferibly to the face with the free one to end the fight. It's a sort of "I know, you know what i know and i know you know what i should do...(etc.)" game.
Ii'd feel safe in saying that it's going to play out allot like dagger vs rapier. Which was not exactly unheard of back in the day.
Sounds like fun. I might have to try that. biggrin

..."Chinese longsword" is a bit vague. Which one or style did you have in mind? And I'm comparing to... rapier? backsword? longsword?
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:15 pm


Aurturia
Well, if it were me playing against eskrima with rapier, I'd feel realitivly confident knowing I have a 43" weapon (maybe a 17" or longer dagger too if i felt like it) with a sturdy hilt I can keep in line to my opponent at all times. The further I keep my hilt out, the larger an area of defense I have, and my point is that much closer to my target.

They're going to have a hard time closing to a distance where they can strike me with one of two 28" kaili . The Kaili is a striking weapon not suited for stabbing or jabbing (unless you want to widdle a nice point onto it. =P ) My opposition is going to generate allot of nice long tempo'ed attacks I can try to take advantage of. My concern is that I don't let him get too close. The rapier is desinged to attack while defending. (A smallsword, longsword or backsword has a bit of troble doing that but has other advantages (right tool for the right job.) The best bet of victory for an eskrima artist over the rapier would be for the eskrima-ist[?] to generate a feigned attack, subjugate my weapon in time with one kaili and then strike a blow preferibly to the face with the free one to end the fight. It's a sort of "I know, you know what i know and i know you know what i should do...(etc.)" game.
Ii'd feel safe in saying that it's going to play out allot like dagger vs rapier. Which was not exactly unheard of back in the day.
Sounds like fun. I might have to try that. biggrin

..."Chinese longsword" is a bit vague. Which one or style did you have in mind? And I'm comparing to... rapier? backsword? longsword?


Like that scene in Jet Li's Fearless ...

Here's a link:
Jet Li's Fearless

And a change of pace with the eskrima ... let's say that instead of sticks were looking more as bolos instead ...

baka_boy1221
Captain


quiet_way
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:06 pm


The blade Jet Li uses in that clip is called a chien literally "charm" sword. It's primary advantage over a European fencing blade is also its greatest disadvantage in the same situation. The chien is designed specifically to be flexible. Most swords will flex within a reasonable tolerance to prevent them from breaking, whereas the chien was deliberately designed to flex far and then spring back into place. The reasoning behind this would take hours and hours to explain in the taijiquan forum, suffice to say that it allows for unprecedented flexibility in the usage of the sword.

That same advantage, however, proves a disadvantage against a point-and-line style (like spears or rapiers) because it makes it significantly harder to deflect the attacks and drive the line away from your core. And the European's greater length (most chien peter out around 36" hilt to tip) is a distinct advantage. An inexperienced user of the chien would find themselves quickly impaled! However, there is also technique to take into consideration, amount of training time, etc. I've been using the chien for thirteen years now and am confident I could use it to take a moderately-skilled European fencer, but I would never try to take on someone who has had a comparable amount of time with a rapier because the art is simpler and more elegant, granting greater time for the rapier fencer to master their art.

Simply put, the European rapier would generally destroy any but a master practitioner of the chien longsword. The latter is simply too difficult a weapon to train in a comparable amount of time to put up a fight. The same pretty much appears to apply to any other European fencing weapon that you can utilize that has superior reach over the chien which is pretty much all of them in my experience. I can cite a whole whopping one incident where I managed to outfence someone using a longsword, but I was vastly the superior in that fight and they didn't really know how to utilize the length of their weapon properly.

P.S. Sorry to steal your thunder, Aurturia, but I have been using the "Chinese longsword" for just under half my life now. xp
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:13 pm


rofl rofl rofl you guys are hilarious rofl rofl rofl

baka_boy1221
Captain


Aurturia

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:27 pm


Not at all. That was kind of awesome and I can sit back and relax.

Yeah, the WMA bits in Fearless were... theatrical. Even the pugilism could have been done allot better.

western spear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKDhJwdP8Gc
...ow. that was fast.
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:24 pm


Aurturia
Not at all. That was kind of awesome and I can sit back and relax.

Yeah, the WMA bits in Fearless were... theatrical. Even the pugilism could have been done allot better.

western spear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKDhJwdP8Gc
...ow. that was fast.


My friends explained to me what pugilism is ... but is there any difference to it and boxing ...

rockettemma


Aurturia

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:26 pm


"Bare-knuckle boxing popular in Britain and the US in the 18th and 19th centuries." Fists are vertical.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:20 am


Aurturia
"Bare-knuckle boxing popular in Britain and the US in the 18th and 19th centuries." Fists are vertical.


Like old fashioned fisticuffs ... eek eek eek ...

baka_boy1221
Captain


tomahawkfighter

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:53 am


I remember a scene from "The Patriot" where Mel Gibson character (Benjamin Martin) "duels" Jason Isaacs's character (Colonel William Tavington) ... I know this is a movie ... but can someone who is skilled at using tomahawk be effective against someone with a saber ...

The Partriot (skip to around 6:00 to see what I mean)
Reply
2. Martial Art Styles

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