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Reply 2. Martial Art Styles
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Wolf Nightshade

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:42 am


First off there are many things said about Wing Chun some true some false some hidden in myth. I will say what I can answer questions if I can but I am only saying what I know and was taught and adding my own thoughts.

Wing Chun Kuen means Eternal Spring Fist or Forever Spring Fist. There are different spellings of the style because of the different Chinese dialects and the trouble with Romanization.

Basic History:

Not much can be told about it's creation the reason is because of why it was created. My understanding is that there was a building in one of the Shaolin Temples called the Wing Chun Hall I can't say it's true. The truth about Wing Chun is that it was created by rebels who were gathering to fight the Manchu. Things were made up to hide it's history. Wing Chun is a Southern art it was created using some of the best techniques said to have come from 5 styles and 5 masters. Whatever the truth it was created to be a streamlined killing art and was said to be easier to learn then other styles that took long periods to master. The idea was that it would be very effective and could be used to train large groups fast according to what I was taught it can be mastered in 5 to 7 years.

From what I have heard things went down the drain when the temple was destroyed leaving only a few who knew the art. The only known information is that several of the people involved ended up with the Opera troupes the Red Junk Opera. These groups traveled by boat as entertainers and have been known for hiding rebels. There is a story about how 2 founders of our system ran into each other on the boat. They challenged each other to a fight one using the Wu Dip Dao or Butterfly swords the other using the Look Dim Boon Grun a 6 foot staff we call the Dragon Pole. They ended up friends and the staff form was modified to our styles footwork.

There are many different branches some say there is even a false style. We refer to it as the modified system story is that a man was teaching his kids and a neighbor was watching he realized this and started doing the moves slightly wrong and without proper footwork. This seems true but I can't say how much truth is in the story I was given. This man latter taught Yip Man who latter met the others son and learned the true system. As a kid Yip Man met an older guy on a boat who was said to be skilled. He fought him ending up in the water every time. This man later told him he knew who his teacher was and why he was beaten. Turned out he was the son of the man who created the modified art. I wont get into names because I forget and the info is all over. Yip Man is well known because he trained Bruce Lee for awhile if not for Bruce we would probably not know of Wing Chun.

Forms:

Siu Lim Tao or Little Idea is the first hand form it teaches the basics of the style but has no footwork. According to my research the 3 forms were one but were later broke up into 3.

Siu Lim Tao

Chum Kiu or building the bridge alternately bridging the gap is taught to train the user in how to connect with an attacker. This is were footwork starts to come in. There are a few advanced blocks, arm breaks and the main kicks as well as the first finger strikes we learn. There is also a deadly technique hidden in this the way I see it although unless your told how it works you wouldn't know. It's a palm strike that can tear the bladder.

c** Kiu

Biu Jee the shooting fingers or thrusting fingers. This teaches the use of finger strikes to vital points and also elbow techniques. The point of this form is to teach close range attacks if for some reason someone is to close. I have heard it said these techniques are for if you made a mistake or need to end things fast.

Biu Jee

Other Training Forms:

Mook Yan Jong the wooden man dummy is a dummy consisting of 3 arms and a leg. It's made to resemble a man standing in a front stance. The leg teaches proper footwork as you move into each block or attack. The arms are punches or a kick and if proper positioning is not maintained you will trip or not be able to execute the techniques properly. This training conditions the arms builds speed and can be effective when no partner is available.

Wooden Dummy Techniques

Chi Sau or Sticky Hand is a training method that teaches contact reflexes at close range. In a tight area or if contact has been made this training builds the skills of reacting to pressure or movement. If the attacker moves the arm a skilled fighter can determine the intentions by the pressure or movement. At high levels only contact with the arm is needed to determine where the attack may come from the person doesn't even need to see. Basically by touching an arm it gives you a lot of information and the limb is less of a threat because you are in contact with it already. If they throw a punch you can feel if it's going strait or whatever the case may be. This is also where we learn arm trapping. When an attacker throws a punch if at any time we have control of that arm and they use the other if they cross we can trap the arms together.

Weapons:

Wu Dip Dao a Southern blade usually very crude. They are about the length of the fist and forearm and have a D guard. Wing Chun stresses the use of both hands and these are used in pairs. The sword form is called Baat Jarm Dao or 8 Slashing Blades. These are also used in other styles with some differences.

Baat Jarm Dao

The Look Dim Boon Grun Dragon Pole was based on a spear I was curious so I looked into it and learned I was right. This is a 6 foot or longer pole and uses a single ended attack meaning you hold it from the end and strike with the other similar to a spear.

Weapons

Wing Chun is a fast art focusing on the hands as most Southern arts do. The idea is to position yourself so both hands can strike the same target. We train to block and attack simultaneously. As we fight we move to one side of the attacker keeping them from using the other side of their body. Kicks are kept low hands above the waist never reaching out to far beyond our center. We use the front kick, side roundhouse, shovel and rake kicks. Wing chun has a bad rap for several reasons but not all schools are bad. Not all the bull is true I have used my training and it works. I hope in the future more people will prove the systems abilities but like Karate there are a lot of people teaching crap. I will try to post other stuff later if you have questions I will try to answer them.

Wing Chun in MMA

Wing Chun stuff

Wing Chun Mainstream
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:18 am


I'm not doubting Wing Chun's effectiveness in MMA ... but that video link is not the best one to show ... the guy fought a guy from the crowd ... sure he was a wrestler ... but he didn't train for the fight ... he didn't have dedicated corner men ... and most important he had no striking ... so the Wing Chun guy beat an average joe ... and in a way that would not suggest his base was Wing Chun

It is kinda funny though ... I saw the Wing Chun guy in another video ... it is kinda embarassing what he does ...

WING CHUN FAIL at M-1 Global Tryouts; Thiago Silva wants Rematches: MMA Confidential

Again I am not doubting Wing Chun effectiveness ... the speed of their strikes is quite impressive ... but this video isn't the best example ...

baka_boy1221
Captain


Wolf Nightshade

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:26 pm


The best guys I have seen I can't find they were German and did MMA. I will see if I can find them again.

I personally broke a guys ribs doing Wing Chun and my friend has taken on guys with knives I don't believe in sport due to all the rules. The thing I don't like about MMA are some of the rules they have it's dangerous but some of the rules they use in these fights almost make it to hard for a standing fighter.

I was taught to use strikes that are illegal in the ring against grapplers. My cousins were all wrestlers I believe 2 were all American. One of my cousins has a big mouth and was always wanting to fight with me. One thing he always said is that he could take me if I didn't kick. So I told him several times whatever I won't. I told him I will fight you just like I would on the street. Every time he would end up being hit in the back of the head. My first instinct when someone shoots for my legs is to go for an elbow to the back of their head or to push the head down and knee to the head. If I feel it necessary I will use the sprawl if they come to close to getting both my legs I will shoot them backwards and get their back. My cousin was messing around awhile back and we were in my house there was to much in the way and when he came at me I got him in a Guillotine Choke and he tapped.

Most Wing Chun schools do not teach anything but Wing Chun. Wing Chun defense against a grappler would be to side step and use their momentum and their head to direct them to the ground then follow up with strikes to the back of the head. I was taught to push the head down and strike to the base of the skull. My Sifu has Jujitsu training and we had a guy who had previous training as well. I was showing a guy last week how to use an Arm Bar if a guy did manage to get me to the ground. I know how to use several techniques on the ground but I do everything I can not to go down if I do I do what I can to get back up.

Most Wing Chun guys have no MMA experience without good grappling skills a fighter is in a bad situation a lot of the fights I see end up on the ground. I have no doubt a skilled wing Chun guy with good grappling skills would do as well as anyone else in MMA.

Learning this has given me some advantage if I had to teach someone something about fighting a grappler this would be it.
Sprawling and Defense Drills
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:11 pm


NHB CLIPS OF THE SCHOOL FIGHT TEAM: THE IRON WOLVES

More Wing Chun guys are getting into MMA style fights but the thing is many schools don't want to mix arts and thats what it's all about. You don't find many pure arts in MMA.

Wolf Nightshade


baka_boy1221
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:42 pm


There is more than one way to take a fight to the ground ... you don't necessarily need to shoot in for a double ...

As for the pure arts ... I was actually waiting for someone to state this ... take a look at "The Dragon" Lyoto Machida ... he has adpated his karate for MMA ... it is probably the most beautiful display I've ever seen ...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:38 pm


Most arts I don't think would do all that well in MMA. Muay Thai, Boxing anything without god ground defense is going to have a rough time. The sport has rules that make it hard for a stand up fighter. I know many b***h and argue about this all the time but the fights I have been in you wouldn't want to be on the ground. I know my training partner did security for awhile and he has said numerous times that he had before studying Wing Chun did Karate and he would never go back. He told us how he used Wing Chun to disarm guys in the bars he was working who were waving knives around. In that sort of place you don't want to be n the ground many times he said he was dealing with groups not a single individual.

I do not believe in going to the ground unless I ******** up. My personal belief is you better train for all aspects of combat or you will only be in a world of hurt. I can do well against an untrained fighter and I am sure even a trained fighter would have a hard time with me. My cousin who has wrestled most of his life and likes to talk big about all these fights hes won went to train with an MMA guy I know here. Thing is hes never been able to beat me then complains about how I fight and gives me crap about kicking and grabbing muscles and crap that I normally would do in a fight.

MMA is good training if you don't get a lot of real world experience but I somewhat worry that someone who trains exclusively in sport or as in a lot of MA schools doesn't train reality then it's going to be weak in a real situation. I know guys who have never fought and they cower away from training that is painful. Last week while sparing a guy without pads we were doing a 3 on 1 scenario. He got behind me and I spun he hit me in the rib with his elbow just barely and I caught him in the mouth with my own splitting his lip a bit. We were not going full out but I would have busted his teeth im sure. When I started we didn't train with pads and higher levels were expected to block or it was their own fault.

I have been punched in the face numerous times by newer students who don't know how to pull punches simply because I screwed up. I have also been kicked in the ribs by advanced students because I screwed up. Unlike boxing sports MA students in many schools aren't used to being hit thats the good I see in MMA. I have seen Black Belt Karate expert big mouths get their asses kicked because they couldn't take a punch. Side from a few guys I train with we have all been in fights and several of us have used Wing Chun in real fights. Most of the Wing Chun people I see use the Modified form and whatever the truth it's not very pretty.

The stances are bad from what I have seen and heard. People I train with have said the way they stand screws a bit with their balance and makes it hard for them to move quickly our stance is very similar to that of a boxer. Some of my teachers have told us that when we side step it blows them away because many of those schools don't teach it. Also I noticed many keep there hands way lower then we do while in an on guard position. It's like they keep them down more in front of their chest. When I stand with my hands ready my lead hand is about head level my back hand is down about in front of my chest near the lead arms elbow. I have noticed by watching videos they do a lot of things I was told never to do.

I would also note that although we don't strike targets with much of anything but roll punches. We do use techniques like jabs and hook punches when necessary. One technique I was taught after blocking and using a knife hand to the face you pull the attackers head back exposing the throat and execute a hook to the throat. There are a lot of people traing with guys who don't know much and a lot of people saying things that aren't true. I ran across people who said we had no kicks and again although we don't have a roundhouse in the forms we use it all the time. There are several kicks in the last 2 forms and in the dummy techniques but the round kick isn't there.

Wolf Nightshade


mistermma

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:22 pm


Nice rant ...

Anyway ... wing chun is effective ... both in real world situations and in ring sports (if you could adapt it) like kickboxing and MMA ...

And yes you see that a lot ... especially the new crop of fighters these day ... they strictly train for the sport ... baka_boy, me, and the group we train with (most of which are part of this guild) train for the ring aspect ... but we understand there is a clear difference between ring sport and street fight ... we are all capable of defending ourselves out the in the world ... but we're not the type of people that go picking fights anyway ... we don't starts ... but if anything were to happen ... we finish them ...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:01 pm


If you want to see really good Wing Chun, look for any movie with Ip Man in it. I think there actually is a movie called "Ip Man." I am currently learning Wing Chun and am enjoying it greatly, and I can trust the style my Sifu is teaching because he went to Hong Kong and trained there with one of the sons of Ip Man.

lKale


quiet_way
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:52 pm


Practitioners of the internal martial arts have great respect for the art of wing chun. Its emphasis on qi techniques and the similarity in hand work to the neijia is striking, and it combines a speed with that which is rarely seen in the softer arts.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:57 pm


Wing Chun is a mixture of techniques from other arts as far as I know all Southern. The most notable are the Snake and Crane I would like to meet people who practice the arts associated with Wing Chun just to see how much was taken. We have our soft techniques and our hard but really the point of Wing Chun is to not fight force with force because it's wasted energy and requires strength over technique. We always let the force come and very slightly redirect it with limited motions or we use footwork to position ourselves away from the attack. I love using the Lap Sau on someone who throws a hard strait punch and doesn't have good balance. As the punch comes the Lap Sau circles around and yanks them straight in that direction if done properly the attacker will come flying up on their toes I have seen guys nearly fall on their faces when this was first used on them.

Wolf Nightshade


quiet_way
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:19 am


A similar deflection is applied in taijiquan (probably learned from Wing Chun, honestly) in which the straight punch is led away from the body, followed by a (surprisingly violent!) reversal of direction in the form of a simple Wild Horse throw (again, very similar to certain Wing Chun techniques I have noted.)
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:47 am


quiet_way
A similar deflection is applied in taijiquan (probably learned from Wing Chun, honestly) in which the straight punch is led away from the body, followed by a (surprisingly violent!) reversal of direction in the form of a simple Wild Horse throw (again, very similar to certain Wing Chun techniques I have noted.)


Wing Chun is a relatively young system compared to others in essence it's an old mixed martial art. According to legend the 5 elders took their best techniques and put them together in an effort to quickly train a competent fighting force. How much of this is true isn't really known. The Wing Chun museum does research on these people some are known to be real others they find no records of. All martial arts have similarities this is do to our bodies and the fact that some peoples were influenced by other groups. Karate for instance was influenced by Chinese monks they mixed their techniques with that of the local fighting arts of Okinawa. Some think the start of the Ninja clans and something to do with Chinese emigrants and mountain monks. These things will never be known but Wing Chun by itself is only 300-400 years old.

Most traditional Wing Chun schols have connections to other arts as well. I have seen some using non Wing Chun weapons and I know some also teach exercises not found in our school. Each teacher has his or her own way so what I learn my look similar but could be way different then another Wing Chun practitioner. I know for a fact our GM knows way more then I will ever learn from my Sifu. He has done extensive training in Dim Mak and traditional medicine. I only know the very basics of striking vital points. I have never bothered to remember each name just a few locations for if I really needed to know. I try to remember knock out points I feel they are more useful at least then you can render them unconscious or stun them.

Dim Mak isn't necessarily a secret of Wing Chun just not a lot of people understand it or are even taught anything about it. Most strikes in Wing Chun follow the Dim Mak points. After training awhile your Sifu should start pointing out target zones. We block, strike, step to the outside and strike to the side of the body aiming for the floating rib, temple, back of the head at the base of the skull. Phoenix eye strike to the ribs just under the arm is extremely painful. Many fail to realize just how much power a roll punch has it's similar to a jab but as your rolling out multiple strikes to weak points of the human body it's like being blasted by a machine gun. There are weaknesses in this punching technique and I don't know about other schools but we do use other strikes like hooks and such. Wing Chun likes to find a weak point and continue striking it.

Wolf Nightshade


JollyRoger384

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:13 am


I've studied Wing Chun pretty much all my life (whilst dipping in and out of other styles) and it is_one_of the most effective and simplistic to learn than most other styles. The fact you have only 3 empty hand forms, two weapon forms and a wooden dummy form to learn in the system instead of e.g. 20 different forms in Shaolin it is very easy to pick up and if you train really hard and continuously then it becomes 2nd nature.

I love Wing Chun, it is the art I adore. If any of you would like to see awesome videos on the system, check out either Master Wong on YouTube or type in "chinaboxer". Both are Wing Chun teachers and go totally in-depth as to which moves do what and why you move the way you do etc. Very, very good instructors.  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:41 pm


Other styles of kung fu ...? or have you branched out beyond that ...

baka_boy1221
Captain

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2. Martial Art Styles

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