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Lady Sedia Auvryarn Vice Captain
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 Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:48 am
This is a hot topic, be respectful of other peoples opinions and realize that everything is just opinion, no one is right or wrong.
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An essay I found on the topic that I thought was intriguing:
Your 'OC' is a Mary Sue by marysue4ever
I have seen a disturbing trend: Anti-Mary Sue groups. There must be some tragic form of torture going on to cause this. Mary Sue writers must be forcing 'normal' people to read their stories. They must be tying people down, using devices reminiscent of Clockwork Orange, and forcing innocent souls to read their stories.
Wait, what do you mean Mary Sue writers are not doing this?
Buy then why are people complaining- oh I see.
Welcome to the internet folks.
Another disturbing trend is this: Anti-Mary Sue's that write 'OC' fan fiction. 'OC' standing for "Original Character.' Invoking the magical abbreviation 'OC' these writers believe it protects them from being a Mary Sue. Oh no, my hypocritical sisters, it is not that simple.
You must embrace what you are, not hate it. Remember, we write for fun! We write to imagine we are someone else in a different world. Now you want to follow some rules in fear of being cheesy? Lame? Too Egotistical? Who is so important to impress that you much restrain your fun? You really want to limit your dreams just to make random internet people not insult your stories?
Pro-Mary Sues, please pity these 'OC's.' Do not push them back when they insult you. Instead, treat them as you would a wounded bird. They just lash out in pain because they do not understand that is going on. Take them in and care for them till they heal and realize the truth. Pro-Mary Sues, we may write ourselves being 'perfect' in another universe, we we are true to ourselves. Sadly some of these poor 'OC's' change themselves to get real world approval from others. They can't even been free in their fictional world.
To the 'OC's' and the Anti-Mary Sue crowd, the following is for you to have more understanding. Hopefully you will see that you are not much different than your Mary Sue sisters. (and brothers!)
The misconceptions of 'not' being a Mary Sue.
You believe you are not a Mary Sue because....
*My character is not 'perfect.'
No, this just means you are good at developing a character. While the perfect Mary Sue can be annoying, flaws do not make her any less amazing. Flaws give her something to tell or relate with the canon characters. It gives her something to angst about. It gives her the ability to fail so a canon has to help her. Personality or physical, flaws make a deeper character, but she is no less a center of the universe she was written in. You can be flawed and still be a 'perfect' Mary Sue.
*My character doesn't 'hook up' with any canon characters.
So your character is stag then, or even has an 'OC' dating partner. You're still a Mary Sue. Do you talk to a canon character? Do you help them on whatever they are trying to accomplish? Are they your best friends forever? Just because you're not making babies with a canon doesn't mean you're not a Mary Sue. You still get attention from a canon, even if not romantically. Getting attention from a canon should automatically make any 'OC' a Mary Sue, but I digress.
*The canon characters are still the main focus of the story.
Congratulations, you're an awesome writer, but still a Mary Sue. You really appreciate the (book, cartoon, movie, comic, show, or ECT.) that you write fan fiction for. You really understand the characters. Hell, you write in a way that fits the universe perfectly. But guess what? You still wish to be a part of that world. Your character may even make perfect sense and interact with canons well. Still a Sue. If even a speck of 'you' is in that character with your wanting to be there... Mary Sue.
*My character passed the Mary Sue Litmus test
First of all, you can pass it and have a LOT of Mary Sue characteristics. Also, passing by only a few points means you are defiantly a Mary Sue. Lastly, if you really do pass it with a low score, your character is boring. Have fun pretending to be a normal person in a fictional world. Alas, even if you are 'normal' in a fictional world, guess what? STILL A MARY SUE. While being flawless lets you stand out, so does being 'normal.' And there you go.
Now take a deep breath.
So your character is a Mary Sue. However, this is not a bad thing. The internet in the last ten years has become harsher to Mary Sues. But, um, this is a big shocker folks: Why care what random people on the internet think?
OH BOO HOO I GOT A BAD COMMENT ON DA. HO BOO HOO THEY'RE POSTING MY MARY SUE ON 4CHAN. OH BOO HOO MY STORY HASN'T RECEIVED ANY VIEWS TODAY.
Seriously. Write for yourself. It is nice to get a comment or two but thats not why we write. It all goes back to being in a fictional world we want to be in. We do share it on the internet because we do like attention, but hell, if you want attention then write a nice canon story. If you want to be free, write your Mary Sue how you want to write them.
The first step is admitting your 'Original Character' is a Mary Sue.
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I don't agree with somethings but I agree with others. I don't think all OC's are Mary Sue as I don't agree with her that any character who enters a fictional world is automatically a Mary Sue but I do agree that we should write for ourselves, that we shouldn't care what other people think, and that Mary Sue's are not necessarily bad.
Opinions?
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:09 am
A really good essay is here. I won't post it cause its so long but its worth the read!
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Lady Sedia Auvryarn Vice Captain
Friendly Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:21 pm
Yeah, that first essay is really stretching the definition of Mary Sue. If you follow that reasoning, is every canon character a Sue then? Because, in a way, you can look at them as being the original author's OCs.
Like everything in life, there are good OCs and bad OCs, and the Sue definitely falls under the bad category. To me, it makes no sense to attempt to justify a Sue and make her out to be "okay" just because some people like to kick up a storm every time they get a whiff of an OC. Sues are bad, poorly-developed characters inhabiting a world they do not fit into - end of story. We all write them, and we even enjoy reading them sometimes, but that does not change anything. (Admit it: it's nice to indulge in bad things now and then. "My Immortal" certainly springs to mind...)
While one should write whatever one wants, one should also consider that maybe not everything is worth sharing. Everyone is free to write out as many personal fantasies as they please - as long as they're clear that they will not get any thanks for raping someone else's beloved fandom.
And that's my personal anti-Sue manifest. (Pim! xd )
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:52 am
Yep, all characters are OC's to someone. So following that logic all characters since the beginning of writing are Mary Sue and therefore it's nothing to worry about eek Imagine that! hehe Anyway, Sue's shouldn't be in the "bad" category. As you said "like everything in life" razz so there are good and bad Sue's. What makes them "good" or "bad" depends on who is reading them, some people put up with more than others. For me, I will copy a conversation I was having with someone else (this is me talking): Quote: Now if it was her saving the world every time, loved the guy and he loved her back, was really smart and brave, everyone thought she was just sooo pretty (actress' looks aside), always knew exactly what to do, etc etc THEN and only then would I call her a Mary Sue. People love to make up all these categories (Angsty Sue, Questing Sue, Saintly Sue,...) but all of them are total BS. Mary Sue is only Mary Sue in it's correct context: as in being like the ACTUAL Mary Sue in "A Trekkie's Tale". Saying a rose is a daisy doesn't make it one, no matter how hard you try and argue razz Its hilarious to see, to bring Twilight into this again, that people are so pissed at Meyer because she called her vampires as 'vampires' even though she changed basically everything about them and yet here people call a character a Mary Sue even though they have changed almost everything about what it actually means. Double standards are the new black I guess razz Either way, yes we do all write/fantasize about them and we do enjoy indulging on occasion. Something I read somewhere that comes to mind goes along the lines of: "we ALL have these fantasies of being the hero and falling in love and blah blah. We don't put them up because we care what others think about them, we're just writing because it makes us feel good. But what we all need to remember is that each of these fantasies takes place in its own universe so there is no need to complain when someone doesn't write a canon character the "right way" or when someone else's OC is hooked up with the same character as your OC. The stories are all taking place separately and its only us who give them more meaning than they have by complaining." Like it says above, we're not ALL putting them out there to "share" (some people, especially me, ONLY want critique when ASKED for!!! [yes I know that doesn't mean I won't get it anyway razz ]). Just because someone posts their stories in an online archive doesn't mean they are "sharing" or "seeking to improve," that is a misconception. I know several people who just use those sites as an archive for their work (not a very good idea not to have back up copies but eh that's them) and I also know people who do it simply because they think the story might amuse/inspire/be a good read for someone else. Yes I know that last one is sharing in a sense, but not in the same way as sharing to get reviews and what not... does that make sense? Anyway, I completely agree that one has to expect that not everyone will like their story but that doesn't mean people can go off and yell Mary Sue and then do mean things like post the story on every Anti-Mary Sue web group blog that they can find (that's just the same as saying "hey guys its like totally ok to bash this girl/guy and their story because I "personally" think it sucks!!") That's the breaking point for me, its ok to say you don't like something, but to invite others to bash it for no reason other than you think its bad is just wrong (because we all know most of those bashers aren't even going to bother reading it and even if they don't bash its a great way to ruin a perfectly fine story by turning away potential readers [people do this to other writers just be be assholes, its disgusting! evil ]). Anyway that is off topic lol back to the point! If anyone cares, my essay on Mary Sue's is in the Resources subforum (it really needs an update). Also I think the section essay here is a really good one when it comes to the topic. Yes I know it is pretty long, but it is a very good read and goes into great detail on what really makes a good character. It's not often that I really agree with someone on this topic but I really liked what the girl said smile
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Lady Sedia Auvryarn Vice Captain
Friendly Conversationalist
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