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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:57 pm
Another member of the triumvirate that is the neijia (sister art to taijiquan and xingyiquan) is the art baguazhang. It is regarded by many as superior to the other two insofar as its defensive focus goes (with xingyiquan being the more offensive and taijiquan finding a balance between the two.) It shares its founding legend with xingyiquan and was ostensibly created at the same time. (See my article on xingyiquan for more information on that.) For those curious, baguazhang was featured in the movie The One, starring Jet Li, used by the "good guy" character in that film.
Baguazhang's focus tends toward a more evasive, defensive styling than might otherwise be seen. Its emphasis on internal energy, coupled with this defensive style likens it to other "soft", circular arts (think aikido). Many masters agree that of the three neijia, baguazhang is the most powerful internally.
The style itself is based upon movements derived from the Chinese I Ching, a book of wisdoms and prophetic "trigrams", specifically those eight that offer (according to opinion) the most potency. The mechanical philosophy of the art is circular in nature, based upon the idea that evading strikes and coming in for attacks at unconventional angles is the best way to fight. The art relies almost exclusively on hand strikes, pushes, and grapples, with almost no kicks evidenced.
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:26 pm
I've been looking at videos at this art ... the thing I notice is the flow ... very fluid ... very loose ... one would almost think it would be easy enough to hit someone practicing this martial art ... but looking at it I could say no chance ...
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:39 pm
Very good observation. The mechanical secret to the art is a classic, simple one. A punch (or kick!) cannot hit what is not there in the first place. A baguazhang practitioner is always in motion, and never, ever moves in a straight line in any direction, even though it might seem they are. The flaw in the art, however, lies in the footwork. As a primary boxing art, baguazhang's footwork is fluid but simple and a blow sufficient to break their root can disrupt their motions and flow.
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:50 pm
So it relies on rhythm ...?
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:38 pm
Not in the same way as, say, Capoeira or Taekyon. It relies on the ability to move specifically and draw power from a deep root. This is why baguazhang is usually taught in tandem with xingyiquan, so that they can compensate for each other's weaknesses in this area.
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 10:37 pm
I see ... I see ... I would hing the flow would confuse a lot of adversaries though ...
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 10:50 pm
The issue at hand with flow is that a flow can be predicted. By alternating the techniques and styles in a harmonious fashion, you can punctuate the flow with the more abrupt techniques of xingyiquan.
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:05 am
baka_boy1221 I've been looking at videos at this art ... the thing I notice is the flow ... very fluid ... very loose ... one would almost think it would be easy enough to hit someone practicing this martial art ... but looking at it I could say no chance ... I was doing the same thing as baka ... and I was wondering ... what would happen if you added more speed or power to the forms ... would that diminish or weaken this martial art ...
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:34 pm
It's hard to say, honestly. Almost all of the power of this martial art is generated internally rather than muscularly, and speed is less important to any given martial art than technique. Baguazhang walks a very careful balance between martial theories, and altering that balance would probably damage the art more than help it. Baguazhang is something of the "ultimate" traditional martial art, in that it has been taught in exactly one way for a very, very long time with almost no alteration. Ask me and I'll tell you that this is because they got the art right many centuries ago. Ask someone else and they might claim stagnation. Either way, something that has been intact like this for so long would suffer if you altered its foundations.
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:43 am
quiet_way It's hard to say, honestly. Almost all of the power of this martial art is generated internally rather than muscularly, and speed is less important to any given martial art than technique. Baguazhang walks a very careful balance between martial theories, and altering that balance would probably damage the art more than help it. Baguazhang is something of the "ultimate" traditional martial art, in that it has been taught in exactly one way for a very, very long time with almost no alteration. Ask me and I'll tell you that this is because they got the art right many centuries ago. Ask someone else and they might claim stagnation. Either way, something that has been intact like this for so long would suffer if you altered its foundations. I see ... I only ask because of the whole XMA thing ... I personally don't like XMA ... and this was way before baka_boy introduced me to MMA ... I would see how this martial art would possibly lose its grace and beauty ... as well as it's effectiveness ...
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:20 am
Is it truly useful in a real fight? If you can become a master there is obviously set material to learn i would assume? Therefore, how to you plan on adapting to uncommon scenarios?
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:46 pm
A common misconception about a "fighting style" is that one trains the style and is then stuck using the motions of that particular format. This is a horrible way of using the martial arts, and no good martial artist allows this sort of stagnation.
The martial arts aren't confining like you seem to think. Instead, when you are studying a martial art you must come to see that rather than teaching you a sort of stagnant set of forms and movements, the martial art teaches you how to move in a specific way. My own sifu would teach us a form, then leave us to learn it without much in the way of applicational instruction. We would practice the motion and form for days, sometimes weeks at a time and were expected to divine its purpose for ourselves. It was a few years before I finally understood that the only purpose of the form was to teach me how to react in a broad sense and that the specific motion itself was unimportant when compared to the principle of the motion.
You contend that the set forms are useless in a fight, and I agree with you entirely. A form, indeed a whole martial art is nothing more than a framework from which to hang your own adaptation and muscle memory. And I presume that if you have read more than just this and a few other forums, you must know my own contention that there is no such thing as a master because your body is constantly adapting and learning new things as you slowly move away from the constraints of a tightly-controlled "style" and more toward an understanding that while something like baguazhang might teach you a specific way of moving, you are the one who must learn how to apply and utilize. This is why the martial arts and their training are useful. The term "master" only differentiates between a more advanced student and one just starting out.
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:28 pm
I just returned from my first Baguazhang learning in over five years, and boy am I out of shape for that art. A new sifu just moved here, and I'm his first student. Three hours in a low stance later and I find that my krav maga training and xingyiquan practice both left me woefully unprepared. Taijiquan played into it somewhat, but the new sifu insists that my thighs be parallel to the ground at all times, which hurts like a mofo. Still, I know that the rewards will be worth it. He's a really good teacher, reminds me of my old taijiquan sifu in a lot of ways (though this man is American, not a Hong Kong native like Sifu Liu was.)
So here's hoping that in a month or two I'll be able to start posting a much more detailed explanation of the style in this forum. Wish me luck!
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:32 pm
rockettemma baka_boy1221 I've been looking at videos at this art ... the thing I notice is the flow ... very fluid ... very loose ... one would almost think it would be easy enough to hit someone practicing this martial art ... but looking at it I could say no chance ... I was doing the same thing as baka ... and I was wondering ... what would happen if you added more speed or power to the forms ... would that diminish or weaken this martial art ... I can further expand upon my original response to this question now, after an hour of applications training with Sifu Long. I took time to frame a similar question, noting that taijiquan techniques are practiced slow but utilized fast. His primary response was to show me just how fast the actual usage of this style was by demonstrating the Dragon form. The videos you see online don't do it justice. At several points, I actually witnessed his movements blurring. They're hypnotic in a way, incredibly graceful and blindingly quick. If I ever get as fast as my sifu, I'll be able to break an arm six ways before the opponent learns what happened to them, lol.
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:11 pm
M'kay, a couple of weeks in and things are starting to come together. My postures are still somewhat weak, a side effect (according to Sifu Long) of my height. Apparently, the longer your legs the harder it is to master the strengthening postures, which I suppose is why they're called "strengthening postures" and not "postures any jackass can do wandering in off the street." xp
We've started to meld the postures into the circle turning now, practicing slowly so as the harmonize the movements of feet and arms with the abrupt, exploding energy of strikes and pushes and the subtle blocking and capturing techniques. Also, I happened to mention my study of xingyiquan, and immediately Sifu Long began to show me how to incorporate the five fists striking format (which is linear in nature) into the circular motions of baguazhang.
I now sort of see why masters teach these two arts together traditionally. The abrupt alteration of circle to line and back again, coupled with the uniquely explosive energy of both arts' movements is an almost perfect blend. I do bemoan that there are almost no kicks in either art, but I think I can actually add a bit of capoeira into the forms since the circular motion promotes the kicking format of that art with a minimum of disruption.
Meditation, thankfully, is zero problem. I've resumed the yi-quan qigong practice that I once did faithfully every day as a qi-building exercise (thanks, Wing Chun for a wonderful format of qigong!) Hopefully, my internal energy will continue to build to a powerful level. According to my Sifu, it is already fairly powerful thanks to my taijiquan and the formerly mentioned qigong practice. Qi is central to the application of baguazhang. With it, the explosive maneuvers take on an entirely different, insidious dimension. A strike that might look inconsequential can do damage days after it occurred. Sifu Long's own teacher told him stories of his father during the Japanese occupation of Chinese territory during WWII. Apparently, he used the (forbidden at the time) art to defend his farm against a squad of troopers. They all walked away from the fight largely unharmed, until four days later when they all died of a strange malady of the internal organs.
At any rate, there's the update. More to come.
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