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 Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:06 pm
I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed yet in this guild....but I will bring it up any ways, because I'm curious....
What are your views about these two places? Do you believe they exist? Do you believe that hell is literally a firey pit? Do you believe that Heaven is just one place with one glory? Or do you view it with three different glories namely Celestial, Terristrial, and Telestial?
Basically, I just want to hear your thoughts about these two subjects.
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:04 pm
I belive in only one heaven and one hell.
I belive hell in a firey place and heaven is a nice peaceful place.
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:08 pm
But what of the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 that talk of the Celestial and Telestial bodies?
And did you ever think that maybe the firey pit as used to describe hell in scripture was only a metaphore?
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:39 pm
Shadows-shine But what of the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 that talk of the Celestial and Telestial bodies? And did you ever think that maybe the firey pit as used to describe hell in scripture was only a metaphore? What do you think the celestial and telestial bodies are referring to? Why do you think the firey hell described in the scripture is a metaphor and what is it a metaphor of?
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:43 pm
Semiremis Shadows-shine But what of the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 that talk of the Celestial and Telestial bodies? And did you ever think that maybe the firey pit as used to describe hell in scripture was only a metaphore? What do you think the celestial and telestial bodies are referring to? Why do you think the firey hell described in the scripture is a metaphor and what is it a metaphor of? Celestial, Telestial, and Terrestial degrees of Heaven. The fiery, brimstone, nasty place is just a metaphor of the seperation of God. The original writers of the Bible could only come up with that "hell" because it was the worst thing they could think of, ongoing and lasting fire and heat, thus to describe everlasting loss of our God in our lives. I honestly don't believe God could create hell, because he only creates perfect and beautiful things, and Satan could not create hell because he cannot create, so really the only hell is the absence of God.
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:15 am
Heaven- yes i believe in it but i don't believe we will spend all eternity just there (not just that but when you think of Multiple Dimension and that God dwells in all of them .... heavens going to be very interesting)
Hell- i don't believe it exists now but it will when the final judgment is set and those that rejected Christ are cast into it. (i also don't believe we burn forever and ever amen) you burn up your gone... this is were i differ from most protestants ,LDS, Catholic... i don't believe in a immortal soul.
-Separation from God is the ultimate punishment-
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:40 am
LordTalisEraphen Heaven- yes i believe in it but i don't believe we will spend all eternity just there (not just that but when you think of Multiple Dimension and that God dwells in all of them .... heavens going to be very interesting) Hell- i don't believe it exists now but it will when the final judgment is set and those that rejected Christ are cast into it. (i also don't believe we burn forever and ever amen) you burn up your gone... this is were i differ from most protestants ,LDS, Catholic... i don't believe in a immortal soul. -Separation from God is the ultimate punishment- Yes I agree with you about not burning for all eternity. I don't believe hell is a firey pit either. Hell to me is eternal separation from God like you said.
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:31 pm
I beleive what the Bible and our God say about Heaven and Hell. There is Heaven, and there is Hell, a Lake of Fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The "telestial" and "celestial" you reference in 1 Corinthians 15:40 is just another corruption that Smith was able to twist from the Bible. Please Note:
NIV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
KJV: 40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
NLT: 40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies
NIRV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
I feel is, as I have said before, you put down the Book of Mormon and read what the Chapter is saying, Paul is talking about our Heavenly bodies and Heaven. He is saying, essentially, "we are unique on Earth, and unique in Heaven." There is nothing here to indicate anything about "Telestial" "Celestial" and "Terrestrial" Kingdoms.
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:10 pm
mazuac I beleive what the Bible and our God say about Heaven and Hell. There is Heaven, and there is Hell, a Lake of Fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The "telestial" and "celestial" you reference in 1 Corinthians 15:40 is just another corruption that Smith was able to twist from the Bible. Please Note:
NIV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
KJV: 40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
NLT: 40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies
NIRV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
I feel is, as I have said before, you put down the Book of Mormon and read what the Chapter is saying, Paul is talking about our Heavenly bodies and Heaven. He is saying, essentially, "we are unique on Earth, and unique in Heaven." There is nothing here to indicate anything about "Telestial" "Celestial" and "Terrestrial" Kingdoms. How do you know that Joseph Smith corrupted it? Where is your proof? Quoting a bunch of protestant based translations of the Bible is not providing proof to your point, neither is it supporting it. As to your statement about different bodies, it could mean that, but then why does Paul reference two degrees, but three variations to describe those two degrees? Also, why are you saying something about the Book of Mormon when the Book of Mormon never references the Degrees of Glory? Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I'm pretty sure not, otherwise you wouldn't be saying for me to put it down for this specific discussion. The Book of Mormon only references plain and simple truths of Christ and His ministry here on earth, never does it delve into deep doctrine such as this. So you might want to rethink your argument, because that is pretty foolish to assume you know what the Book of Mormon is talking about or even what could be written in it.
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:34 pm
mazuac I beleive what the Bible and our God say about Heaven and Hell. There is Heaven, and there is Hell, a Lake of Fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The "telestial" and "celestial" you reference in 1 Corinthians 15:40 is just another corruption that Smith was able to twist from the Bible. Please Note:
NIV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
KJV: 40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
NLT: 40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies
NIRV: 40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another.
I feel is, as I have said before, you put down the Book of Mormon and read what the Chapter is saying, Paul is talking about our Heavenly bodies and Heaven. He is saying, essentially, "we are unique on Earth, and unique in Heaven." There is nothing here to indicate anything about "Telestial" "Celestial" and "Terrestrial" Kingdoms. It could very well be just talking about different bodies, but my interpretation could be correct as well, that there are different degrees and glories in the heavens. Paul also makes reference to a seeing some up in second or third heaven. And I made no mention of the Book of Mormon. It does not talk about the different Heavens. Maybe you should read and you'd find out. I get really tired of being talked down to just because my beliefs are a little different than yours. I just wanted a discussion just to see what every one thinks on certain topics to increase my knowledge and understanding of things. I don't think it's appropriate to try and degrade some one else's belief system.
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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:02 pm
Oh i believe there will be a Lake of Fire and i don't deny there will be gnashing of teeth but i don't believe it happens till Christ Returns. (and im non denomination i use the bible and the bible only)
You can't have everlasting life without Christ so those that don't except him will burn and be gone .. you can't have immortality without Christ even if its everlasting suffering.
Yes i can back all this up and defend it to the death with scripture but before to long we get into Private interpretation sooooo .... I'll leave it at that.
Words like everlasting and forever mean different things in the Greek and Hebrew.. if you read 1 Samuel it states that Samuel was to reside at the temple forever... funny thing is he left the temple on several occasion and died ....
OKAY OKAY OKAY i swear im shutting up now
razz either way i love you all heart
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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:21 pm
LordTalisEraphen Oh i believe there will be a Lake of Fire and i don't deny there will be gnashing of teeth but i don't believe it happens till Christ Returns. (and im non denomination i use the bible and the bible only) You can't have everlasting life without Christ so those that don't except him will burn and be gone .. you can't have immortality without Christ even if its everlasting suffering. Yes i can back all this up and defend it to the death with scripture but before to long we get into Private interpretation sooooo .... I'll leave it at that. Words like everlasting and forever mean different things in the Greek and Hebrew.. if you read 1 Samuel it states that Samuel was to reside at the temple forever... funny thing is he left the temple on several occasion and died .... OKAY OKAY OKAY i swear im shutting up now razz either way i love you all heart Ah I see what you're saying about the lake of fire part in hell. I just don't agree about it being a place of burning. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, yes, but fire no. That's just my interpretation. I agree with not being to live forever with out Christ, but His death and resurrection covered every one, even the unrepentant. So by His death and resurrection, even those who are cast into hell will still exist forever. The only thing they will not have is eternal life, which is being able to dwell forever with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. In Hebrew, I know that hell is known as sheol meaning place of spirits, but I don't think it's described as a place of burning. And then some where in the NT it talks about a place called Gehenna which is translated as hell from the Greek manuscripts. It's described as a place of everlasting burning, but really what Ghenna is a garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem. It's a place where the followers of Baal sacrificed their children to the fire god Molech. (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). Dead bodies of animals, criminals and rubbish were thrown, and as legend has it, consumed by a constant fire. So it became the place of everlasting destruction in Jewish tradition. (I found this out by surfing random places on the internet such as wikipedia)
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:59 pm
yes your right on Gehenna.. but you also need to realize what theology in Jewish tradition your going with. You had the Sadducee the Pharisees , harodians etc they all believed something different.. not to mention that Hellenistic teaching seemed to stem from Alexandria to the Jewish culture. To me as i said before the bible speaks to me plainly and i believe what makes since through scripture, and eternal life to me is an everlasting existence in general.
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:27 pm
LordTalisEraphen yes your right on Gehenna.. but you also need to realize what theology in Jewish tradition your going with. You had the Sadducee the Pharisees , harodians etc they all believed something different.. not to mention that Hellenistic teaching seemed to stem from Alexandria to the Jewish culture. To me as i said before the bible speaks to me plainly and i believe what makes since through scripture, and eternal life to me is an everlasting existence in general. True. I just skimmed over all that info on the internet and saw that the Gehenna was part of Jewish tradition. And to me the scriptures are very specific but very broad at the same time, so it's no wonder so many people interpret verses differently. I suppose that's why I like going back to the original Hebrew and Greek texts when I get a chance to that way I can actually gain a better understanding of what I am searching for.
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