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 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:20 pm
Recently I was thinking about the concepts of Heaven and Hell. I've always thought of the two as complete opposites, but then I imagined this hypothetical scenario:
Imagine yourslef in a room with a door. Let's say you have a choice. You can stay in the room and cease to exist, or choose to enter the door. But there's a catch. There's a 50% chance of Heaven and a 50% chance of Hell behind the door. Once you enter it you cannot go back. What would you do? Would you enter the door, or stay in the room? I would definitly stay in the room, and this is because the reward of infinite bliss pales in comparison of eternal torment. So, instead of the carrot of Heaven and stick of Hell, we are acctually only left with the fear of eternal punishment. The main reason you would obey God's rules would only be the punishment of Hell, thus the idea of Heaven as a reward becomes practicly unnecessary.
So Christians would only be obeying God in fear of Hell, rather then the anticipation of Heaven. In my view this makes Christianity a completely fear-based religion, which is yet another blow to the idea of a loving God.
I was wondering what your thoughts on this idea are.
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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:14 pm
As a Christian, I do not fear God or Hell as I KNOW I am going to Heaven. I obey God because I WANT to and that my reward will be eternal bliss in Heaven where there is no more pain, suffering, illnesses, sadness and every other negative aspect in life. Hell will give you all of that and more. And to clarify something....God DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL! We choose to go there when we disobey God or do things that Satan would love and God would not. Like being mean, hateful and spiteful to our neighbors through theft, killing, adultery, using God's name in vain or cursing His name. Or even having sex with children or inappropriate sex. God loves us and wants ALL of us to go to Heaven and share his eternal joy with us. It is us who choose to reject Him and curse Him that sends us to hell. Not HIM!!!! So I LOVE being a Christian and do not fear Him or hell and look forward to the day I can join Him in Heaven to worship him and thank Him for all that He has done and blessed me with. I will pray that someday you too will come to realize that Christianity is not a FEAR religion, but a joyous and blessed religion that will reward us someday with eternal bliss in Heaven. Dear Lord, I pray for this person who does not believe in you and feels that worshipping and honoring you is based only out of fear. Pray that someday he will realize how much you love him and would like to show him your love and your blessings for him. In your precious name Lord, Amen and Amen.
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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:23 pm
 I just want to say, before this enters negative territory, that this subforum is not intended for us to try to convert each other to different beliefs. It's stepping a little close to the line to post a prayer for someone to basically eventually convert to Christianity - in fact, I feel like it is a little bit patronizing, even though I'm sure that's not how you mean it. I think it is very nice that you want to pray for the members of the guild to turn to what you truly believe is the right belief - but please leave your posts at "I will pray for you" and say your prayer to God in private like Jesus instructed, rather than in here where we can all read it. Also please note that I don't mean to insult your intentions or beliefs by this - I only want to make sure that we are careful not to say anything in here that will lead people to fight over their different beliefs. I was once assaulted by four or five Christians in a forum who were trying to convert me after I politely asked them to stop, and it was a really unpleasant experience, so I want to make sure that we stay away from that kind of thing here. That being said, I'll step out of mod-mode and give my opinion on the subject. As someone who was a Christian for upwards of 21 years, and who is now not a believer in any gods, I have been on both sides of this issue. I can see where PurpleAngel2God is coming from with her opinion that Christianity is joyful (my earlier years as a believer were like that), but I personally identify more with Artto's position that a large part of the religion is based on fear (and guilt, too!). Looking back at the beliefs I used to hold... some of the "side" beliefs that came along with my belief in God were most definitely based in fear. I was terrified of doing anything wrong, because I feared that I would receive an infinite punishment (Hell) for a finite transgression (questioning the existence of God, or listening to offensive music, etc). And I could almost possibly agree with "we choose to go to Hell" if the claim was simply that doing "bad" things caused it (like murder, theft, child molestation, or cheating on a mate or spouse)... but people usually say that it's not these works that determine one's eternal fate, but one's faith (or not) in God. Personally, I found it impossible to hold onto my belief once I realized that I had been believing largely out of fear of Hell and hope of Heaven... I tried to force myself to continue believing, but I could not justify believing in something that important for what I felt was such a selfish reason (and I felt that if God was out there, then he would see through such reasons anyway). I am (at least at present) incapable of believing in deities, and according to most Christians that I know... I would be condemned for that, even though I don't do violence to people, I don't cheat on boyfriends, I don't steal, I don't lie, I don't sleep around.. and I DO do volunteer work, donate to charity, and help my parents when they are sick (or when they are well)... all because I WANT to, not because I want a reward for it. We really can't control what we believe in, so if we can be eternally punished for a belief, then in my opinion that is something that God would be choosing. I hope I'm not coming off in a judgemental manner, because I definitely don't want to do that! I just want to make it clear why I agree with Artto's post in my personal experience.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:29 pm
PurpleAngel2God As a Christian, I do not fear God or Hell as I KNOW I am going to Heaven. I obey God because I WANT to and that my reward will be eternal bliss in Heaven where there is no more pain, suffering, illnesses, sadness and every other negative aspect in life. Hell will give you all of that and more. And to clarify something....God DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL! We choose to go there when we disobey God or do things that Satan would love and God would not. Like being mean, hateful and spiteful to our neighbors through theft, killing, adultery, using God's name in vain or cursing His name. Or even having sex with children or inappropriate sex. God loves us and wants ALL of us to go to Heaven and share his eternal joy with us. It is us who choose to reject Him and curse Him that sends us to hell. Not HIM!!!! So I LOVE being a Christian and do not fear Him or hell and look forward to the day I can join Him in Heaven to worship him and thank Him for all that He has done and blessed me with. I will pray that someday you too will come to realize that Christianity is not a FEAR religion, but a joyous and blessed religion that will reward us someday with eternal bliss in Heaven. Dear Lord, I pray for this person who does not believe in you and feels that worshipping and honoring you is based only out of fear. Pray that someday he will realize how much you love him and would like to show him your love and your blessings for him. In your precious name Lord, Amen and Amen. What is the purpose of Hell, if not to punish those who disobey God? And why couldn't the people that weren't worthy of Heaven just siese to exist? Why do they have to suffer forever? Hell is such a mind boggling concept! No one deserves eternal suffering! And I'm serious when I say no one. Not even Hitler, not even Charles Manson. I can't grasp the whole concept of inifinite punishment for finite crimes. It's complete nonsense. And God supposedly created everything, and is all-knowing. That makes him responsible for every single soul that goes to Hell. He knew a lot of people were going to burn in Hell, but still decided to create the world. And to be clear, I don't believe in God, Hell or Heaven, firstly because I haven't been preseted with a single shread of evidence, and secondly because of all the nonsense it involves.
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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:23 am
Daffodil This thread is little more than a "Ah ha I caught Christianity with it's pants down thread." I find it perturbing that you criticize the christian for defending their belief rather than simply stating that this thread itself borders the offensive. If I make the statement that I see most pagan and polytheistic religions as people justifying their actions then I'm going to be called on it whether or not the statement is fact or fiction.
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:40 pm
 There is a difference in how the two opinions in question were stated. The original post of the thread was asking a question that was meant to spark discussion, while the part of the reply that I called out as inappropriate was not the explanation of the person's beliefs, but the prayer for Artto to be converted. I was very careful to make that clear. I never said that Christians should not respond to questions like this by defending their beliefs; I simply said that things like praying for people's hearts to be opened to any particular belief is not a discussion tactic, but rather a hope that someone will be converted - therefore, the prayer should be said in private, as converting each other has never been the purpose of this discussion forum (not to mention that Jesus agrees about not praying for others to see, as per Matthew 6:5-6 sweatdrop ). I do not think that the thread itself is offensive unless you choose to take it that way; the discussion material was not presented in a hostile manner and I would undoubtedly allow similar questions about any other type of worldview or belief, including my own. If the thread itself is "inappropriate" then the entire subforum falls under that label as well. And to use your example, if you chose to make a thread that discussed pagan religions in that light, I would most certainly allow it without issue, as long as it was presented as a forum for discussion and not a hostile jab at those beliefs. If you believe that Artto has based his opinion on misinformation or a misinterpretation of your theology, then by all means, you are welcome and encouraged to explain why you feel this way - but that does not mean that we should be venturing away from the territory of intellectual discussion and into the territory of definitive conversion attempts. Instead of getting offended at his opinion or question, look at it as a way to sharpen your own beliefs by formulating a well-thought-out response to him, and keep in mind that an intellectual, theoretical approach is a lot more likely to garner a favourable response than a purely emotional one. wink If you have a problem with the way that I moderate any thread in the future, kindly direct your concern to my PM inbox rather than bringing it up in the thread. I am by far not new to being a forum moderator, nor am I known for making unfair judgement calls.
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:34 pm
punishment has never worked in shaping my behavior.
the more people threaten, the more determined i am to do the exact opposite of what they want.
so for me, hell becomes a great temptation toward misbehavior.
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:17 pm
I feel that Christianity is very fear based. Until I started going to church I did not fear God, nor did I have any bad feelings for him. When I was in 9th grade I was baptized and started to go to church. By the time I was in 12th grade I had stopped going and developed not only fear, but some pretty negative feelings towards the deity.
Everyone sins somehow. I don't think it matters how "small" or "big" the sin is...it is still sin. I was told by the church I went to that we came down here to be tested and we made that choice. Personally, I could not see myself agreeing to be tested. Regardless, it does not seem fair because no matter how long you live, you will sin. And if sinning leads you to hell...it seems everyone would end up there. If God loves all, I cannot see him only forgiving certain people because of age, religion, being baptized, repenting, etc. Many people commit the same sins over and over again.
Before we even come down to this planet we know this. Thus, why do we chose it? To prove ourselves to God? But...we can chose between him and Satan before even coming down. It just makes no sense.
Sorry, I probably went way off course. Just lots of thoughts. haha.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:29 pm
TwilightDzine I feel that Christianity is very fear based. Until I started going to church I did not fear God, nor did I have any bad feelings for him. When I was in 9th grade I was baptized and started to go to church. By the time I was in 12th grade I had stopped going and developed not only fear, but some pretty negative feelings towards the deity. Everyone sins somehow. I don't think it matters how "small" or "big" the sin is...it is still sin. I was told by the church I went to that we came down here to be tested and we made that choice. Personally, I could not see myself agreeing to be tested. Regardless, it does not seem fair because no matter how long you live, you will sin. And if sinning leads you to hell...it seems everyone would end up there. If God loves all, I cannot see him only forgiving certain people because of age, religion, being baptized, repenting, etc. Many people commit the same sins over and over again. Before we even come down to this planet we know this. Thus, why do we chose it? To prove ourselves to God? But...we can chose between him and Satan before even coming down. It just makes no sense. Sorry, I probably went way off course. Just lots of thoughts. haha. 
I've had those same thoughts. They were really a big part of what led me to realise that the whole premise behind the religion just didn't click for me. I mean, I understand it all; I spent years studying and believing in it. But those very thoughts that you've mentioned... once I stopped being afraid of questioning my beliefs, I realised that I couldn't just accept what I'd been taught. There had to be something they'd gotten wrong or left out, to my way of thinking.
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:44 am
the biggest problem I had with Christianity was that the God was supposed to be all loving and everything was going according to His plan.
That means that everyone who goes to Hell went there because He planned for them to go there in advance and that doesn't work with him being all loving. An all loving God would never allow a place like Hell to exist let alone plan for some people to go there.
If that is how God is then hes a vindictive b*****d and doesn't deserve my worship. I refuse to believe that about any higher being.
I think the creator, whatever he/she is, is too big to be explained by anything written by humans, and most of the texts were written by people who were just simply trying to explain things and how they work.
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:13 am
Jesus speaks of the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
in my mind's eye, i picture that as a place where people actually choose to be, because they are too proud to accept happiness.
so they aren't sent there, they actually choose it.
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:11 pm
I don't believe there is a hell.
I believe that there are 3 directions a person goes to after death.
We all have a spirit/soul in ourselves.
The best place to go is directly into the Light. This is were everyone who chooses that direction meets up in a really beautiful dimension. All our memories are restored etc.
We often reincarnate back to human bodies, but, most prefer to stay in the Light.
Some people refuse to go in the Light and become Earth Bounds until they have the opportunity to go into the light again. They could end up as ghosts on earth for a long time, even up to centuries.
If a person has murdered another human they are immediate reborn again as a child without the opportunity of returning home to the Light.
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:59 pm
I'm not sure what to believe. I do not want to be miserable after death though.
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