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 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:56 pm
I'm not looking to get the tax removed.
It's a great gold sink - I agree with that argument wholeheartedly. I'm asking whether it'd be worth letting the tax be reduced on higher cost (eg 1 million+) items in order to encourage vendors to list such items in the MP rather than in the Exchange.
It's been 2 years since the tax has been up and running, and while for the most part we've adjusted our vending without too much trouble (although the "Get rid of the tax petition" is still getting signatures where it lives in the recycle bin), I've been wondering about all those old, old MC's. Those which sell for a million and more.
I have a rambly sort of argument, so bear with me please.
As I recall, the biggest gripe vendors had with the tax was it prejudiced against the rich. I won't explain - you should know why by now.
At some point, wouldn't people eventually stop listing the expensive/rares on the exchange due to the tax? Or at least, few enough people list them that the item can easily be artificially inflated?
Q: Has this already been happening? At what rate? (I don't vend in that range, so I wouldn't know...)
Because if so, this same tax makes it that much harder for the average gaian to quest for anything really rare as they race against this (allegedly) enforced inflation .
I know you don't generally get your average gaian questing for MC's which came out 4 years before they joined, so that might be why the Mods didn't think it'd be a problem, and old MC's are, well, rare, so it's not like they change hands as fast as their later cousins, but if Gaia modified the tax so that items above a certain price (say, 500k, as an arbitrary number) were not taxed any more than than any 500k item (ie:at a flat rate*), then that might encourage more venders to list their rich-stuff in the MP again. More listings = more tax, in the long run, as well as more stuff changing hands.
*For example, if I set 500k as the upper margin, anything selling for 500k or less would be taxed 2%, but anthing selling 500.001k and up would only be taxed 10k.
I want to know whether you think it'd be worth petitioning Gaia to make this sort of a change to the tax, or even whether you think this idea has merit or not.
Oh, and for anyone who picked option 4: Do you think we could organise Gaia's vendors to start a revolt to grab attention? We probably have enough gold/hoards between us to really influence the market, at least where it comes to anything not sold in stores.
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:13 am
Seirya Oh, and for anyone who picked option 4: Do you think we could organise Gaia's vendors to start a revolt to grab attention? We probably have enough gold/hoards between us to really influence the market, at least where it comes to anything not sold in stores. I'm confused about that last part. I don't mind the tax system but games i've played with tax system there was usually a fee to put items up on an auction house (which would be our MP) instead of taking a huge 2% chunk out of our profit. I saw an item for vend which would have made a 10k profit except it was so expensive the tax would have been 50k which is rediculous! The mp tax petition is in the recycle bin? So they really refuse to change it?
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:02 pm
When Gaia first implemented the tax, one of the things they stated (and they have the data, I don't) is that most of the items over a certain price point are sold through the Exchange, not the MP. So this exempts them from the tax anyway.
The problem that Gaia is trying to solve is that there really isn't an effective gold sink for all the gold that's being created. Without a gold sink - that means gold not leaving your hands and going to someone else's, but actually going back to Gaia and leaving the system entirely - inflation will continue to skyrocket.
The 2% tax on MP vends (and remember, it's only MP vends) is one way of removing gold from the system. So are the Gold Lotto and Dernier Cri (which I think doesn't go far enough - you want gold out of the system, how about making some Gold Only EIs?). So was that silly Save Our Shops campaign.
I doubt they're going to change it at this late date. It's just something to be worked around, and it is low enough that it can be worked around.
If they removed the Exchange and made it so you HAD to use the MP for every sale, then yes, I would say it's unfair. But using the MP is completely voluntary - it's just really, really convenient. If I was selling something in the multiple millions, you bet I'd be over posting in the Exchange. But for the kind of stuff I buy and sell, convenience matters, so I pay the tax and deal.
No, I don't LIKE the tax. I wish it wasn't there. But I think the chances of having it changed are about a snowball's in hell.
Digressing slightly...
If there was a tax of 50,000 on a vend, that means the item was priced around 2.5M. 10K is a really piss poor profit on that size of investment. You could make 10K easily with several smaller vends on other items with a lot lower capital investment.
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:23 pm
I've learned to work around the tax. Like Purplewiz said, its a gold sink to help with inflation.
Now when they first released the tax system, prices on non-gold-shop items went up, because of people "recovering what they would loose". This was the only reason I didn't like the 2%.
I think if we changed it so late in the game, we'll have another issue of people feeling they are being cheated in some way, shape, or form.
It was easier to make a profit before, because you didn't have to subtract tax out of the equation and I wouldn't mind them getting rid of it. Your idea is nice, and it would be easy for me to keep up with profits for items in the higher numbers but again like Purplewiz said, I doubt they'd change.
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:30 pm
Purplewiz:
To address your first point: I was wondering if, since the tax was implemented, this hypothetical price point got lowered.
Don't exchangers, to a large extent uses the MP listings (and Tektek) as a guide to how much something is worth (although it's never exactly LMP)?
If the tax influenced more people to sell their (eg:priced million and up) stuff in the exchange, whoever decided to brave the tax and list in the MP, even if that item eventually didn't get sold, would be able to influence the perception of how much something is worth, wouldn't they?
I understand how the tax acts as a gold sink and is thus necessary, but I was talking about those expensive items, of which 2% is a much greater amount. My example was using an arbitrary line, and I know 10k is small change (that's why I picked it) so i'm not sure what you're trying to say...
T_mama:
When only the rich would be affected by such a change, and that change could mean they can keep more profits, it's beyond my imagination how someone would feel cheated.
But I'd still like to hear in what manner they'd complain, since as yet this is but a notion of mine.
Hileron:
In regards to the tax system, technically they refuse to remove it.
The "revolt" I proposed would be to, with everyone's (ideally all vendors and exchangers) cooperation, force an artifical inflation on as many items as possible to prove a point: that unlike real-world economics, our economy is different, and shouldn't be treated accordingly.
Also, it might show Gaia exactly what sort of 'power' their users have, since in my opinion they've ignored oldbies for far too long in favour of recruitment and cash.
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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:32 am
I think you have a splendid idea and I wouldn't complain but Gaians are known complainers, they will feel cheated in some way (just like any other feature Gaia releases).
I don't think the rich users would be the one complaining about this, it would be the "poor" users. They would complain that the richer users are getting more favor because they get to keep more profits with the items they sell, but Gaia's lower economic hierarchy (I'm not sure that's the right term) cant afford items 500k+ and the rules don't change for them. "BAWBAW IT ISNT FAIR"
But thats expected. :/
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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:01 am
Why thank you. Although complainers have never stopped Gaia from rolling out their own changes... Except for that cigarette ban, now lifted.
Another point poor users might miss is that if rich users can keep more profits from the MP, they're more likely to list there, and this should improve the competition as people (hopefully) undercut each other.
The only problem is how to bring it to the staff's attention, and make it stick
confused
While we might have the buying power to effect the 'revolt' I suggest, it could very well rebound poorly on us if not only the non-rich masses but the admins take it the wrong way.
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:30 pm
The only "safe" thing to do would be to potential and maybe suggest it in the AtA.
I'm sure a big market revolt would get the admins attention but that would require cooperation from many Gaians, if we could organize that many. And if those chosen would actually follow through.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:15 am
The AtA? I'm not familiar with that acronym sweatdrop
If you mean start a petition, I'd rather ask someone else to do the actual writing... I'm not a particularly convincing person.
And you're right about the difficulty of organising people. However, I wasn't looking to use 'revolt' as a means of drawing attention, only as some last resort if the passive route (petition) gets lots of user support but is ignored/dismissed by the Gaia staff.
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:55 pm
I don't really like the tax very much. But, sometimes there's things that you just have to work around. However, the less-rich Gaian aren't in the category of "getting an even chance" if marketplace items can be priced so high. Something should really be done about the pricing of the marketplace items. There are many newbies out there that aren't lucky enough to have the gold for getting most any item they desire. In the long run, I believe that if prices were lowered, or tax was removed/reduced, then it would actually bring in more business. Gaians could begin gaining more gold than they could the other way. I hope you'll think about all of this.
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:03 pm
When they added the 2% tax they also added 6 more sale slots (10 total) and the sales graphs.
The sales graphs Alone make the 2% tax well worth it, not to mention the additional profit that can be made by selling more items at one time.
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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:37 pm
Lupas Deva: I know the tax is worth keeping, I'm just wondering whether is could be adjusted for higher end items. Amensu Saje There are many newbies out there that aren't lucky enough to have the gold for getting most any item they desire. Actually, booty grab lets you gain quite a bit of gold per day. Each well stocked tank (and there are many of those) could give you anywhere from 1-3k per game. I'm not interested in trying to help newbies gain gold faster. I think Gaia's done enough for them, and it isn't as hard to get 100k as it used to. I think the tax has the most impact on the inflation of those high-end, 7-or-8-digit value items, and so discourages people from listing them in the MP, and doesn't really encourage people to undercut the competition, thus allowing accelerated inflation of these items not seen in low-to-mid level items. I hope that changing the market tax to a flat rate, once you get above a certain price range, would slow inflation of said high-priced items, and I'd like to discuss whether such a change would actually make such an impact.
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:18 am
just to mention this, any of the users that were on about 5 years back remember what happened the last time a group of gaians started up an artificial inflation ring? yep, that's right! Gaia just outright banned them, removing them and all they're high end items they'd obtained. I personally don't like the idea of the admins thinking so little of we members that they're just willing to throw us away, but I've made the mistake of actually investing real money on digital items before. needless to say, it was a mistake. I understand the need for a gold sink and I understand the rate of inflation rather well but when you look at the reality of gaia you realize, "hey! it's just another video game"
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