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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:04 pm
We all know Socialism dates back pre-19th Century. And in 1849 Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto to oppose then Capitalism. However we modern day Communist and our Comrades can all (or I think) that Capitalism has dramatically changed in 1st and 2nd world countries in the 21st and 2oth Century. In my opinion no longer are the modern day workers are as oppressed as our ancestors. However I wish to get all my fellow compatriots opinions on such.
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:10 pm
我爱你。。。(Wǒ ài nǐ...)How are modern day workers not oppressed? I'm not following you, here.
P.S. Capitalism is still the same as it's always been; it just has a prettier mask over that ugly face it has. 永远。。。(Yǒngyuǎn...)
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Miza_Radioaktiv Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:30 pm
First world workers are not as "oppressed" as third world workers, that is apparent. But they are still locked into a single class, where they will serve the same purpose their "more oppressed" ancestors did. It's irrelevant as to whether or not they live in filth, they are still workers, and therefore, still powerless.
The real problem is social democracy, an ideology that serves to prolong capitalism's tenure, just as fascism has before. Giving first world workers (who are comparatively empowered) enough to tide them over does not solve the problems of exploitation. It's because the first world workers are comparatively empowered that they need to be kept on a tighter leash, with more treats and goodies to make them forget the reality they live in.
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:11 pm
Even further, we cannot forget the classic formula.
Wages < Surplus value = Exploitation
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:38 pm
Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but;
Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows.
Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve.
I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever.
The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles.
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:52 pm
The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again?
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:54 pm
Comrade Rob The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again? Now you're starting to sound like Gracchvs. I would rather we engaged in a discussion as to why I may be wrong so that I can further educate myself on your positions and visa versa. Or should I be reduced to humorous and self-deprecating posts like some jester, for your entertainment?
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:36 am
I'll just leave this here.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:07 am
The Curse Comrade Rob The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again? Now you're starting to sound like Gracchvs. I would rather we engaged in a discussion as to why I may be wrong so that I can further educate myself on your positions and visa versa. Or should I be reduced to humorous and self-deprecating posts like some jester, for your entertainment? Don't pretend you are anything else.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:03 am
Louis-Auguste Robespierre The Curse Comrade Rob The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again? Now you're starting to sound like Gracchvs. I would rather we engaged in a discussion as to why I may be wrong so that I can further educate myself on your positions and visa versa. Or should I be reduced to humorous and self-deprecating posts like some jester, for your entertainment? Don't pretend you are anything else. Ouch that hurts. Right here. *Points to chest*.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:26 am
Puppetmaster_02 We all know Socialism dates back pre-19th Century. And in 1849 Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto to oppose then Capitalism. However we modern day Communist and our Comrades can all (or I think) that Capitalism has dramatically changed in 1st and 2nd world countries in the 21st and 2oth Century. In my opinion no longer are the modern day workers are as oppressed as our ancestors. However I wish to get all my fellow compatriots opinions on such. The comparatively better off position of the workers in the advanced capitalist countries is based on the continued immiserisation of the third-world workers and peasants. But even that 'comparatively better off position' is getting worse, and is being restricted to less and less members of the working class in the advanced countries, especially in the US.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:41 am
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Puppetmaster_02 We all know Socialism dates back pre-19th Century. And in 1849 Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto to oppose then Capitalism. However we modern day Communist and our Comrades can all (or I think) that Capitalism has dramatically changed in 1st and 2nd world countries in the 21st and 2oth Century. In my opinion no longer are the modern day workers are as oppressed as our ancestors. However I wish to get all my fellow compatriots opinions on such. The comparatively better off position of the workers in the advanced capitalist countries is based on the continued immiserisation of the third-world workers and peasants. But even that 'comparatively better off position' is getting worse, and is being restricted to less and less members of the working class in the advanced countries, especially in the US. Do you have scientific evidence of that, Gracc? Or at least, could you explain what you mean by 'worse', specifically. I get what the exploited worker is, but to what degree is it getting worse for the American? Are you talking about the relationship between poverty and unemployment? imbalanced Inflation vs Wage increases, or is there decreasing government services as well as decreasing private accountability for hired labour? All of these things? Others? It would be interesting to see this argument laid out in detail, perhaps you should present it as a thread, even on EDP.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:11 am
It's hard to tell if modern capitalism is better or worse- Cases could be made for both. Te average worker gets far more benefit from labor that in past capitalist societies. this is true. It is closer to egalitarian than in the past. slightly.
However, this only means that capitalism can be more sneaky- It ACTS as though it is a benefit for the workers, to keep them under control, while it really benefits the upper class. It makes the people think that they WANT to be wage slaves, which is where the "worse" part comes in- It's more sadistic and twisted than simply "We know you hate it, but you'll do it or else" to "Everyone loves Big Brother, and Big Brother loves you back!"
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:12 am
The Curse Comrade Rob The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again? Now you're starting to sound like Gracchvs. I would rather we engaged in a discussion as to why I may be wrong so that I can further educate myself on your positions and visa versa. Or should I be reduced to humorous and self-deprecating posts like some jester, for your entertainment? It was a joke Curse, relax :p
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:17 am
Comrade Rob The Curse Comrade Rob The Curse Well, the question doesn't seem tailored to a Capitalist such as myself, but; Far fewer people are locked into one class than ever. With more liberalisation and more growth, this number only grows. Capitalism is far better than at its birth. It's a slow process to undo feudalism, aristocracy and despotism because the damage is cultural as much as it is economic, but it does develop and improve. I think it is dishonest to claim all people are locked in their class, however. Entrepreneurship, risk taking and investment can all cause income growth. Not to mention the education that many, many more people have access to now more than ever. The third world is, unfortunately, marred by protectionism, fascist and otherwise authoritarian nationalist leaders and various corruption issues, but it's certainly not capitalism which is responsible for such troubles. Why are you in this guild again? Now you're starting to sound like Gracchvs. I would rather we engaged in a discussion as to why I may be wrong so that I can further educate myself on your positions and visa versa. Or should I be reduced to humorous and self-deprecating posts like some jester, for your entertainment? It was a joke Curse, relax :p Aw, I'm sorry, I've been in such a state lately. I wonder why? Also, you were supposed to make a jab about me being the town jester too, but Gracc beat you to it =P
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