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 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:08 pm
I'm very disappointed at the level of intellectual discussion going on in this guild. Its time to start generating more of it. People, start asking questions. Start posting discussion topics, do something. Here, I'll even start,
Stalin V. Trotsky
GO!
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:50 pm
How about small acts of protest? I've started telling workers I meet about the pay gap- the fact that at least 80% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the population. It's not much, but it may get people thinking. And people who think, learn. And those who learn spread their wisdom. Hopefully.
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Miza_Radioaktiv Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:50 am
æˆ‘çˆ±ä½ ã€‚ã€‚ã€‚<3In comparison to facial hair and downright sexiness, I'll have to go with Un'ca Joe on this one.
Seriously though, while I admire works of Stalin, some of his ideas were a bit too authoritarian for my tastes. I don't necessarily agree with Trotsky's ideas either, but he does stand firm on his Marxist ideals which I don't believe Stalin did. He definitely let power get to him.
In other words, I have a soft spot for both. Trotsky through his many works, and Stalin from a historical viewpoint (I be a WWII junkie). 永远。。。
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:11 pm
I don't give a damn about either of them, or Marx for that matter. We have to think for ourselves, and it's a slippery slope to crazy-town if you try to take one man's ideas and emulate ALL of them with rigidity and kabbalah- Look at Christianity. Jesus is probably not very pleased with what people did with his message.
I say pick out ideas, but don't idolize anyone entirely and hang on their coatsleeves saying "Marx said! Marx said! Marx said!" when you could be thinking of your own solutions to problems, even if you come to the same conclusion.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:17 pm
Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents).
Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him.
I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age?
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:28 pm
divineseraph I don't give a damn about either of them, or Marx for that matter. We have to think for ourselves, and it's a slippery slope to crazy-town if you try to take one man's ideas and emulate ALL of them with rigidity and kabbalah- Look at Christianity. Jesus is probably not very pleased with what people did with his message. I say pick out ideas, but don't idolize anyone entirely and hang on their coatsleeves saying "Marx said! Marx said! Marx said!" when you could be thinking of your own solutions to problems, even if you come to the same conclusion. Okay. But in order for you to know anything or be creative for that matter, you must first be influenced by something. We as communists take our influence from Marx. Marx laid out the theoretical basis for modern communism and no one to this day has superseded that. If you wish to attempt it, fine. However you cannot overstep historical and material cicumstances, your ideology is bound within the frame work of capitalism. Any attempt for you to out step that will be met with the utmost of failures. Furthermore why accept something as true and then not follow it with the utmost fervency? It is my personal belief that those who do not do so are insecure in what they believe. They may say something is 'true' but will not follow it to the fullest. Why? Because in reality, they do not have a firm belief in what they claimed to be 'true'. Now Divine, I've been in guilds with you for some time. You've stayed pretty much where you are now. With that being said, I don't think you have any knowledge of Marx's theoretical work. And if I am wrong, and you actually have read quite a bit of Marx, please do tell what you think shouldn't be taken from him. I want to know why we shouldn't believe in Marxism with the utmost fervency.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:30 pm
Nokturnal Evisceration Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents). Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him. I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age? Show me sources of these mass murders. Please don't make unfounded claims.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:03 pm
Comrade Rob Nokturnal Evisceration Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents). Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him. I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age? Show me sources of these mass murders. Please don't make unfounded claims. Never really looked up proof on the internet and honestly, Im too lazy to do it. However I have heard countless witness accounts of how NKVD took away people on ridiclous claims never to be seen again.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:09 pm
Comrade Rob Nokturnal Evisceration Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents). Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him. I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age? Show me sources of these mass murders. Please don't make unfounded claims. You mean the thousands of oppositionists killed?
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:12 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Comrade Rob Nokturnal Evisceration Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents). Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him. I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age? Show me sources of these mass murders. Please don't make unfounded claims. You mean the thousands of oppositionists killed? My grandfather's neighbor was taken away on claims he said something bad about Stalin. Another guy was arrested for wiping his a** (they didn't have toilet paper in Post-Revolution Ukraine) with a newspaper that had Lenin's picture on it. From what I know it was at least a million dead.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Trotsky's ideals on Marxism are very interesting and I admire his heroism. Stalin's socialism in one country thesis isn't a very good idea because of me being a proud socialist, believe all countries should be run on socialism. Curse you, Joseph Stalin, you Trotsky- killing b*****d.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:33 pm
Comrade Rob divineseraph I don't give a damn about either of them, or Marx for that matter. We have to think for ourselves, and it's a slippery slope to crazy-town if you try to take one man's ideas and emulate ALL of them with rigidity and kabbalah- Look at Christianity. Jesus is probably not very pleased with what people did with his message. I say pick out ideas, but don't idolize anyone entirely and hang on their coatsleeves saying "Marx said! Marx said! Marx said!" when you could be thinking of your own solutions to problems, even if you come to the same conclusion. Okay. But in order for you to know anything or be creative for that matter, you must first be influenced by something. We as communists take our influence from Marx. Marx laid out the theoretical basis for modern communism and no one to this day has superseded that. If you wish to attempt it, fine. However you cannot overstep historical and material cicumstances, your ideology is bound within the frame work of capitalism. Any attempt for you to out step that will be met with the utmost of failures. Furthermore why accept something as true and then not follow it with the utmost fervency? It is my personal belief that those who do not do so are insecure in what they believe. They may say something is 'true' but will not follow it to the fullest. Why? Because in reality, they do not have a firm belief in what they claimed to be 'true'. Now Divine, I've been in guilds with you for some time. You've stayed pretty much where you are now. With that being said, I don't think you have any knowledge of Marx's theoretical work. And if I am wrong, and you actually have read quite a bit of Marx, please do tell what you think shouldn't be taken from him. I want to know why we shouldn't believe in Marxism with the utmost fervency. I haven't read Marx, and I don't need to- That's the point. I understand how our economic system works, and I understand that it is a terrible thing. I don't need to read what I already know- Why can't I formulate my own system? I understand the definition of Communism, why do I need to know one a*****e's opinion on it any more than anyone elses? And I say "a*****e" with the utmost respect. How is my ideology marred by capitalism just because I haven't read Marx? wouldn't Marx be muddled with capitalism since he was in it too? My ideology is the exact opposite of the capitalist mindset, and if you're going to claim otherwise, I would like to ask you to provide evidence. How is it insecure to work out problems in my own head, rather than reading someone elses' work and nodding along? THAT is what seems like insecurity and weakness of mind. My solution to the economic problems we face is obvious- Freedom, equality and no means of controlling the means of production. That happens to be Communism. I would like to read Marx, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with knowing great minds in the field. However, he's just a guy- his word is not law. It's reasoning like that that turns organized religion into a shithole.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:06 pm
Nokturnal Evisceration Louis-Auguste Robespierre Comrade Rob Nokturnal Evisceration Stalin was a mass murderer of innocent civilians (not that mass murder is a bad thing, just a mass murder of Nazis and Bourgeoisei and not innocents). Also he was too much a Fascist for me to like him. I wonder what would have happened if Lenin had lived to an old age? Show me sources of these mass murders. Please don't make unfounded claims. You mean the thousands of oppositionists killed? My grandfather's neighbor was taken away on claims he said something bad about Stalin. Another guy was arrested for wiping his a** (they didn't have toilet paper in Post-Revolution Ukraine) with a newspaper that had Lenin's picture on it. From what I know it was at least a million dead. Two examples equal a million? Wha? FrostDemon13 Trotsky's ideals on Marxism are very interesting and I admire his heroism. Stalin's socialism in one country thesis isn't a very good idea because of me being a proud socialist, believe all countries should be run on socialism. Curse you, Joseph Stalin, you Trotsky- killing b*****d. Wow. Im pretty sure Ramon Mercader killed Trotsky, but maybe that's just speculation. Furthermore S1C didn't advocate socialism happen in just one country. It advocated that countries that experience a proletarian revolution develop socialism in their own way rather than linking up and enveloping each other. Only once these nations reach socialism could they link up on an equal economic basis and be truly communist whereas Uncle Leo thought that communism could be achieved despite the uneven development of capitalist nations. divineseraph Comrade Rob divineseraph I don't give a damn about either of them, or Marx for that matter. We have to think for ourselves, and it's a slippery slope to crazy-town if you try to take one man's ideas and emulate ALL of them with rigidity and kabbalah- Look at Christianity. Jesus is probably not very pleased with what people did with his message. I say pick out ideas, but don't idolize anyone entirely and hang on their coatsleeves saying "Marx said! Marx said! Marx said!" when you could be thinking of your own solutions to problems, even if you come to the same conclusion. Okay. But in order for you to know anything or be creative for that matter, you must first be influenced by something. We as communists take our influence from Marx. Marx laid out the theoretical basis for modern communism and no one to this day has superseded that. If you wish to attempt it, fine. However you cannot overstep historical and material cicumstances, your ideology is bound within the frame work of capitalism. Any attempt for you to out step that will be met with the utmost of failures. Furthermore why accept something as true and then not follow it with the utmost fervency? It is my personal belief that those who do not do so are insecure in what they believe. They may say something is 'true' but will not follow it to the fullest. Why? Because in reality, they do not have a firm belief in what they claimed to be 'true'. Now Divine, I've been in guilds with you for some time. You've stayed pretty much where you are now. With that being said, I don't think you have any knowledge of Marx's theoretical work. And if I am wrong, and you actually have read quite a bit of Marx, please do tell what you think shouldn't be taken from him. I want to know why we shouldn't believe in Marxism with the utmost fervency. I haven't read Marx, and I don't need to- That's the point. I understand how our economic system works, and I understand that it is a terrible thing. I don't need to read what I already know- Why can't I formulate my own system? I understand the definition of Communism, why do I need to know one a*****e's opinion on it any more than anyone elses? And I say "a*****e" with the utmost respect. How is my ideology marred by capitalism just because I haven't read Marx? wouldn't Marx be muddled with capitalism since he was in it too? My ideology is the exact opposite of the capitalist mindset, and if you're going to claim otherwise, I would like to ask you to provide evidence. How is it insecure to work out problems in my own head, rather than reading someone elses' work and nodding along? THAT is what seems like insecurity and weakness of mind. My solution to the economic problems we face is obvious- Freedom, equality and no means of controlling the means of production. That happens to be Communism. I would like to read Marx, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with knowing great minds in the field. However, he's just a guy- his word is not law. It's reasoning like that that turns organized religion into a shithole. Okay, if you understand how this economy works then please explain to me what factors determine the price of a commodity. If it you don't know the answer, then I'm not surprised because Marx actually understood how the economy works and wrote extensively on it. Maybe reading Marx will do you some justice, for if you philosophize about how you think the economy works, you are no better than the Austrian school. Secondly, I never said you were marred to capitalist thinking because you havent read Marx. The point I was trying to make was that your thinking cannot go beyond what the capitalist system has created for us. Marx was both aware and effected by this, that's why you hardly see him wasting his time speculating what communism would look like in practice because he couldn't possibly approach it with an appropriate way of thinking that wasn't effected by the economic system at hand. All he could say for sure was that communism will be the synthesis. lastly: Communism isn't " Freedom, equality and no means of controlling the means of production" For under communism, the means of production are held in common which means that the means of production are in control of the people.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:44 pm
I'd have to say Trotsky
I agree more of Stalins ideas than Trotsky's ideas
but (i dont know if this is true, i live in the US and everything is spun up to fit our idea that communism is evil)i read somewhere that Stalin indirectly killed 6-7 million in Ukraine because of one of his plans
could someone get me a fact check?
but basically, id like Stalin more if he wasnt as fascist and he didnt (supposedly) mass murder Ukrainianes
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:47 pm
dl1371 I'd have to say Trotsky I agree more of Stalins ideas than Trotsky's ideas but (i dont know if this is true, i live in the US and everything is spun up to fit our idea that communism is evil)i read somewhere that Stalin indirectly killed 6-7 million in Ukraine because of one of his plans could someone get me a fact check? but basically, id like Stalin more if he wasnt as fascist and he didnt (supposedly) mass murder Ukrainianes Okay Stalin is not a Fascist. Im really sick of people throwing that term around like its ******** candy. People please. Read then dare to compare http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism
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Reply
