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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:47 am
Okay, so I've gotten into a bit of a Lord of the Ring kick. This is maybe the third time I'm reading the books and I was just wondering...
How do you think the Fellowship would have been different had Faramir gone to Rivendell in place of Boromir? Do you think Faramir would have succumbed to the Ring like his brother had?
In Towers when he is tempted by the Ring he is able to resist that temptation and let Frodo and Sam go (and I think he not only showed his quality but also redeemed his brother with that act). But do you think that if he had be introduced to the Ring earlier on he would have gone the same way as Boromir or would he have stayed strong against its influence?
Another question is, if Boromir had been in Faramir's position with Frodo and Sam do you think he would have let them go, or done as he did in the Fellowship cannon?
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:56 am
Great question, Renkon!
Let me see... Well, in my opinion, a person's character doesn't change simply because they've been introduced to something a little later or earlier. If a person is good, and would do the right thing, then they would do the right thing regardless of when the opportunity is presented to them. I think that if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of his brother, Boromir, that yes, he would still have been able to resist the temptations of the Ring. It maybe would have tried him harder, but he would have resisted.
Alas, I do not believe Boromir would have let them go, however. He was a fairly good man, but not as good, it appears, as his brother was. I believe having the Ring in his clutches like that would have overcome him with desire for the Ring, and he would have made a seriously bad choice and kept them captive. Not because he was a bad person, you see, but because he was less virtuous than Faramir.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:02 am
Tommy Dionysus Well, in my opinion, a person's character doesn't change simply because they've been introduced to something a little later or earlier. If a person is good, and would do the right thing, then they would do the right thing regardless of when the opportunity is presented to them. Ah, but does a character not change and grow based upon the experiences they have over the course of the story? We know not what Faramir had seen or experienced between when his brother left for Rivendell and when he met Frodo out in the wilderness. A great host of thing could have happened, any one of which could have changed his outlook and influenced his decision. If he had been sent to Rivendell instead of Boromir them he may have been to concerned with pleasing his father to notice that the Ring was corrupting him. ((I do so love these "what if"s. Speculation is fun! ))
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:13 am
RenkonNairu Tommy Dionysus Well, in my opinion, a person's character doesn't change simply because they've been introduced to something a little later or earlier. If a person is good, and would do the right thing, then they would do the right thing regardless of when the opportunity is presented to them. Ah, but does a character not change and grow based upon the experiences they have over the course of the story? We know not what Faramir had seen or experienced between when his brother left for Rivendell and when he met Frodo out in the wilderness. A great host of thing could have happened, any one of which could have changed his outlook and influenced his decision. If he had been sent to Rivendell instead of Boromir them he may have been to concerned with pleasing his father to notice that the Ring was corrupting him. ((I do so love these "what if"s. Speculation is fun! )) A very valid point. But the way I see it is that if he was so concerned with pleasing his father, then he would want to do so by being a valiant, honorable, and courageous man, would he not? A person with those kinds of morals and values doesn't just develop them over night, they are raised with them, or they see and believe in them from a young age. And while one brother may not take to them so easily, the other may embrace, and indeed strictly adhere to them. I do not believe Faramir was the type of person, at any point, to succumb to the corruption of a great evil.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:20 am
I'm inclined to agree with you, I just had to bring up that argument to cover our bases.
Now then, if Faramir had taken Boromir's place do you think the Fellowship would have disbanded at all? Boromir was, after all, the weakest link. If he hadn't been corrupted then they all might have pressed on the Mordor together.
If that had happened, what would have happened to Rohan and the the Forrest of Fangorn vs. Isenguard? If Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli hadn't fought with Theoden at Helm's Deep would the hore-masters of Rohan survived? If Merry and Pippen hadn't met Treebeard the Ents never would have gone to war with Isenguard.
((In retrospect, the breaking up of the Fellowship was really a good thing.))
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:34 am
Well, bases are covered. lol
Another good question, and several good points. If Boromir hadn't been such a "weak link" in the Fellowship, if they hadn't gotten split up as they did, I think Saruman wouldn't ever have been defeated by walking, talking tree's, and the Horse-masters of Rohan would have fallen, yes. It would have been dark times for all of the good people involved in those two situations, indeed.
(Speaking of which, in the movies, there is a small army of Elve's that marches to Helm's Deep. This never happened in the book, so that small army of Elve's (to anyone who didn't know that) does not count as a save in regards to the question "what if Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli never ended up at Helm's Deep?")
And if they had never split up, Aragorn would never have been able to free the spirits of those long-suffering soldiers, either, which would have sucked for them, eh?
((It really was a good thing. It just happened in a bad way.))
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:37 am
Tommy Dionysus RenkonNairu Tommy Dionysus Well, in my opinion, a person's character doesn't change simply because they've been introduced to something a little later or earlier. If a person is good, and would do the right thing, then they would do the right thing regardless of when the opportunity is presented to them. Ah, but does a character not change and grow based upon the experiences they have over the course of the story? We know not what Faramir had seen or experienced between when his brother left for Rivendell and when he met Frodo out in the wilderness. A great host of thing could have happened, any one of which could have changed his outlook and influenced his decision. If he had been sent to Rivendell instead of Boromir them he may have been to concerned with pleasing his father to notice that the Ring was corrupting him. ((I do so love these "what if"s. Speculation is fun! )) A very valid point. But the way I see it is that if he was so concerned with pleasing his father, then he would want to do so by being a valiant, honorable, and courageous man, would he not? A person with those kinds of morals and values doesn't just develop them over night, they are raised with them, or they see and believe in them from a young age. And while one brother may not take to them so easily, the other may embrace, and indeed strictly adhere to them. I do not believe Faramir was the type of person, at any point, to succumb to the corruption of a great evil. The thing you are missing here is the amount of time each of the brothers was exposed to the rings temptation. Boromir managed to resist the desire to take the ring for a long time - from leaving Rivendell all the way to his attempt to take it was a matter of weeks of exposure. While Faramir did not take the ring, he was only exposed to it for a few hours altogether. Boromir had no intention to steal the ring in his first few hours, or even the first few days or weeks. On top of that, Faramir was influenced by the story the hobbits told of his brother succumbing to temptation, which helped to bolster his resistance. Without knowing just how much the power of the ring had influenced him, there is no way to tell whether it was Boromir's weakness or the ring's strength that allowed it to overcome him in the end, but I think it is a fair bet that, with prolonged exposure like his brother, Faramir may well have succumbed, too.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:42 am
Ahh, you're right. Never thought of that. Definitely should have, though. Thanks for pointing that out. Especially the part about the Hobbits tale of Boromir having influence over Faramir. That was something that had especially slipped my mind.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:46 am
@ Tommy: And lets not forget that if Rohan had been decimated them so would have Minastirith and Gondor. (Like dominoes.)
@ Grace: Yes, but Aragorn was exposed to the Ring for far longer than Boromir and yet he was still able to resist its temptation. (One could argue that this is because he is one of the Dunadine, the desendents to Numinor (sp?)) but he's still a Man and has the same weaknesses as all those who belong to the race of Men.
If Aragorn could resist the Ring them why not Faramir?
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:49 am
RenkonNairu @ Tommy: And lets not forget that if Rohan had been decimated them so would have Minastirith and Gondor. (Like dominoes.) @ Grace: Yes, but Aragorn was exposed to the Ring for far longer than Boromir and yet he was still able to resist its temptation. (One could argue that this is because he is one of the Dunadine, the desendents to Numinor (sp?)) but he's still a Man and has the same weaknesses as all those who belong to the race of Men. If Aragorn could resist the Ring them why not Faramir? Aha! Equally as valid point. So lets assume that is what I was thinking in the first place, shall we? lol Yes, Rohan, then Minastirith and Gondor. It would have been terrible.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:51 am
Tommy Dionysus Yes, Rohan, then Minastirith and Gondor. It would have been terrible. At that point it probably wouldn't have matter if they had destroyed the Ring or not because everyone else would be dead.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:54 am
RenkonNairu @ Tommy: And lets not forget that if Rohan had been decimated them so would have Minastirith and Gondor. (Like dominoes.) @ Grace: Yes, but Aragorn was exposed to the Ring for far longer than Boromir and yet he was still able to resist its temptation. (One could argue that this is because he is one of the Dunadine, the desendents to Numinor (sp?)) but he's still a Man and has the same weaknesses as all those who belong to the race of Men. If Aragorn could resist the Ring them why not Faramir? That is a good point, and, of course, it comes back to whether Boromir was weak or the ring was strong. Aragorn had many advantages of Boromir, even so: Being of the Dunadain, carrying the Star of Elendil given him by Arwen, and the lack of obligation to any kingdom at that time (Recall that Boromir wanted the ring 'to help Gondor').
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:56 am
RenkonNairu Tommy Dionysus Yes, Rohan, then Minastirith and Gondor. It would have been terrible. At that point it probably wouldn't have matter if they had destroyed the Ring or not because everyone else would be dead. Except for the inhabitants of Mirkwood... No one was attacking them, last I checked. but all the Son's of Men would be dead, save like... One or two.
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:59 am
There will, of course, be unaccountable variables for any character when confronted with the Ring's power. For example, why did Smeagol seem to be more effected than Deagol when they were both exposed to the Ring for the same amount of time? (Actually, Deagol had been exposed to it for longer -by a few seconds/minuets.)
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:04 am
Yes. I've often loved using the saying "If is the only word a thousand letters long." Any time the word "if" is used, the amount of variables is astounding. It opens up the possibilities for any number of sub-realities and alternate universes.
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