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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:25 am
Quoted from Jeffrey R. Holland, an Apostle of the Lord. Quote: May I refer to a modern last days testimony. When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage, to face what they knew to be an immenent martyrdom Hyrum read these words of comfort to the heart of his brother. "Thou hast been faithful, wherefore, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down of the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I Moroni, bid farewell until we shall meet, before the judgment seat of Christ." A few, short verses, from the 12 chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon...... ......Later, when actually incarcerated in the jail, Joseph the Prophet, turned to the guards who held him captive and bore a powerful testimony to the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Shortly thereafter, pistol and ball would take the lives of these two testators. As one of a thousand elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, I submit this as one more evidence of it's truthfulness. In this their greatest and last hour of need, I ask you, would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book? And by implication a church and ministry they had fictiously created out of whole cloth? Never mind their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless, nevermind that their little band of followers are about to be homeless, houseless, and friendless and that their little children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor, nevermind that legions will die and other legions live declaring that they know that the Book of Mormon and the church that it espouses to be true. Disregard all of that and tell me, whether in this hour of death that these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge quoting from, and finding solace in a book which if not the very Word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatains until the end of time. THEY WOULD NOT DO THAT.They were willing to die, rather than deny the divine origin and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. For 179 years this book has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, targeted and torn apart, like perhaps no other book in modern religious history, perhaps like no other book in any religious history and still it stands. Failed theories about it origins have been borne, parroted, and died. From Ethan Smith to Solomon Spaulding, to deranged paranoid to cunning geneous. None of these frankly pathetic answers has ever withstood examination because there is no other answer than the one Joseph gave as it's young, unlearned translator. In this I stand with my own great-grandfather who said simply enough "no wicked man could write such a book as this, and no good man would write it, unless it were true, and he were commanded of God to do so."...... .....If anyone is foolish enough, or mislead enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and semetic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origins of those pages somehow especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that whitness has had on what is now 10s of millions of readers; if that's the case than such persons elect or otherwise have been deceived...... .....But my testimony of this record and the peace it brings to the human heart is as binding and unequivocal as was theirs. Like them I give my name to the world to witness unto the world that that which I have seen and like them, I lie not, God bearing witness of it. I ask that my testimony of the Book of Mormon and all that it implies, given today under my oath and my office, be recorded by men on earth and angels in heaven. I hope I have a few years left in my last days but whether I do or do not, I want it absolutely clear when I stand before the judgment bar of God that I declared to the world in the most straightforward language I could summon that the Book of Mormon is true. That it came forth the way Joseph said it came forth and was given to bring happiness and hope to the faithful in the travail of the last days...... Forgive my writing of this because I had to listen and type this out at the same time. If you desire to listen to the whole talk, and it is quite powerful and moving, go to Jeffrey R. Hollandthat link and go to Jeffrey R. Hollands talk for MP3. I know, without the shadow of a doubt, that the Book of Mormon is true. May you all, in this guild, read it, and may you find a testimony in it, whether it be one that finds it true, or you find it false. May you still have a testimony of it, rather than the testimony of your pastors, your preachers, your teachers, etc. I want all of you, to find your own testimony of this work, and may you know of Joseph Smith, by the fruits he has left physically, for everyone to see, called the Book of Mormon. I bind this testimony today, in this guild, in the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen.
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:54 pm
Hey i understand your fervor i really do man but to me this is not sufficient evidence and i do have a book of Mormon not that i have read all of it either. But i will also point out that my Denominations "not self claimed " prophetess has a health message not to mention during her lifetime she wrote more than 5,000 periodical articles and 40 books; but today, including compilations from her 50,000 pages of manuscript, more than 100 titles . Some of her more popular books include Steps to Christ, The Desire of Ages, and The Great Controversy and these are not small books about 900+ pages long, i have read most of the Great controversy and all of steps to Christ although steps to Christ isnt 900+. After all of this i still have issues believing she is 100% correct in what she says and i have problems with calling her a prophet but i believe in our doctrine which BTW she didn't create! ... i guess what im saying here is be careful never follow blindly even if your touched by a book.
God Bless
P.S Ellen White only had a 3rd grade education to boot
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:52 pm
Joseph Smith didn't create the Book of Mormon, it was translated. And also Joseph Smith had only reading, writing, and arithmetic, but I'm not here to argue who had less of an education. I'm just asking people to gain their own testimony, not assume, not create controversy, not follow in the footsteps of what other people have said. I do not have blind faith, I have picked at the Book of Mormon ever since I could debate the validity of it. But I cannot deny my testimony of it. It is true, no matter what anybody assumes, creates, or decides, it cannot be any other way. Archaeology is proving it, Near-Eastern Science is proving it, Geography is proving it, science in general is proving the Book of Mormon to be true. If the Book of Mormon is true, that makes Joseph Smith's story true also, making Joseph Smith words true, thereby making him a prophet of God.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:11 am
I would like to post a brief history about me dealing with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.
I grew up in a family, who is very against the Latter-day Saint Church, the Book of Mormon, etc. I have been exposed to nothing but anti-LDS literature the majority of my life, and I in turn, was very against the Church myself. My family is still against the Church and when I became a member, they contemplated disowning me.
I was a freshman in high shool when I was first introduced to the Book of Mormon. I wanted nothing to do with the book at all. I had a dream one night, before I ever read the Book, and in the dream I was standing in front of a crowd of people, proclaiming the truth of the book and that I hoped every one would gain a testimony of it too. I had three dreams that were similar to this one that I just stated. Keep in mind, again, that I had never read the book at that point in my life. I had a testimony of it, before I had even broken the binding on a copy. I denied that testimony for the longest of time, until one day I was told by a good friend of mine that I needed to read the Book of Mormon and form my own opinion of the book, I didn't have to accept it as truth, but I had to come to the knowledge of what the book said. I refused to read it, but I kept getting the feeling that I should after I had prayed about it so many times. So finally I read it. I will tell you that my testimony of the book increased after I read it. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I read was the word of God. I cannot deny it now and could not deny it then.
A few years passed, I kept my testimony of the Book of Mormon, but continued to deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet. My husband and I spent hours debating about whether or not he was a true prophet or a false one. I was challenged to get on my knees and pray about it. I asked the Lord what His opinion on the matter was, I told Him that I didn't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, but I wanted to know what He had to say. One evening, about a year ago, I was at a friends house, with my husband, for dinner. We were discussing the beliefs of the Church, they had given me a brief history of it, and a run down of the doctrines. The missionaries were even invited over. I was talking about my stance on the Book of Mormon, the Church and Joseph Smith. By that point in time, I had reached a state of indifference about the man himself. One of the missionaries looked at me and said "it sounds like you already have a testimony of the Church you just haven't accepted it yet." At that exact same moment, I felt the Holy Ghost come upon me and whisper my name and He said to me "you already know the truth, and you don't have to ask or question any more." My husband also received the same message from the Holy Ghost that the very same time that the missionary spoke and I felt the Holy Ghost move on me as well. The Holy Ghost told my husband "she already knows the truth of the gospel." Three people at the very same moment received the same revelation (for lack of a better term) about my testimony. On the way home that night, I bore my testimony to my husband that I knew the Church was true because of the witness I had received from the Holy Ghost. I also told him that I knew Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that Thomas S. Monson is the prophet the Lord has chosen to lead the Church today. I sealed that testimony in the name of Jesus.
For me to deny the Book of Mormon would be like trying to deny that my left arm is attatched to my body, the same goes for denying the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So I will say to all of you in this guild, that I know the Church is true, I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, same as the Bible, and I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet and I know that we are led by a prophet of God today, even Thomas S. Monson. And I sustain him as prophet, seer and revelator. I say these things in the name of Jesus, Amen.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:25 am
Umm okay well im not quesitoning your belief although for every one word of mine there is a return of about fifty , please don't think im on the attack if i was i would seriously have pages apon pages to ask . I have learned to let such things go because a debate hardly ever persuades anyone , i gave a small warning concerning your churchs book of mormon in comparision with my own doctrine. I honestly get shakey when people mention less of The bible and more of there doctrine and as far as the bible it has stood the test of time for 2000+ years ,yes we can get techincal with this but lets not get long winded. Again im not attacking your belief system just presenting the thought that a book to me is not suffecient evidence. As far as your claims on archeology im just curious "CURIOUS" what validates the book of moron with the archeology that you know of.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:50 am
We do not say that the Book of Mormon is the only evidence, nor do we place it above the Bible. It is, however, scripture, and is used as such. The Bible is a powerful book yes, but it's not the only source. I will provide evidence to the Book of Mormon when I get back from work, but to sum some of the things though is ancient chiasmus sentence structures, paragraphing, words such as therefore and it came to pass, and other various evidences that only would be used in ancient Hebrew texts.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:54 am
I'm not taking this from the stance that you are attacking my beliefs. I just felt an urge to bear my testimony and give a little backround on myself.... Any ways here some thing I found on the book of mormon....I know Someoneiknow will inevitably post more, but I wanted to post a few things myself.... Quote: There are several supporting evidences for a Mesoamerican theory. These evidences match what we find in the Book of Mormon and, not surprisingly, were unknown or virtually unknown to early ninenteenth-century farmers in upstate New York. Writings Mesoamerica is the only place (so far discovered) that has a sophisticated writing system druing Book of Mormon times Adavanced cities and fortifications Thanks to archaeology we now know that such cities and fortifications existed in Mesoamerica during Book of Mormon times. Rivers Rivers must match in size and in portion of what we find in the Nephite scripture. Such correlations are found in Mesoamerica. Culture Both Book of Mormon cultures and Mesoamerican cultures had developed agriculture and commerce. Volcanism The destruction described in 3 Nephi following the New World appearance of Christ, is best explained by volcanic activity and earthquakes. Mesoamerica lies in a hot zone of frequent earthquakes and volcanic activity. The vast majority of LDS archaelogists, anthropologists, and New World experts believe that Mesoamerica meets the requirements for lands described in the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon geography is, first of all, internally consistant, it provides over seven hundred geographic references and never trips up in the explaining directions of travel and geographic locations. Second, such a consistant geography can't just be dropped in any location in the world; it must not only fit the six criteria mentioned above (which accurately match what we know about ancient Mesoamerica), but geographically it must also match hundreds of mutually dependant variables including hills, rivers, seas, and so forth. As John Clark, the director of the New World Archaeological Foundation explains, rathering than counting a credible Book of Mormon geography as single evidence for the book's authenticity, "it actually counts for several hundred. The probability of [Joseph] guessing reams of details all correctly is zero." Third, a New World geography must correctly account for the population figures we find in the Book of Mormon (which mentions the existence of millions of people). As Dr. Clark observes, "Mesoamerica is the only area in the Americas that sustained the high population densities mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and for the times specified." That such correlations are genuine to real experts in Mesoamerica is seen in the following story of two Mesoamerican archaeologists, Dr. Kim Goldsmith and her husband, Alejandro Sarabia, who converted to the Church: "Long before becoming Mormons, they both had earned degrees in archaeology and for several decades had been engaged in research at Teotihuacan- the largest archaeological zone found in all of Mesoamerica and a site that flourished from about 150 B.C. to AD 750 (which is partially comtemporary with Book of Mormon times.) Alejandro is currently the Site Director at Teotihuacan. While Kim and Alejandro were converted through a spiritual witness, they believe the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient text and that it has an overwhelming number of important points that easily fit in with myriad geographic and cultural traits of ancient Mesoamerica." This text was taken from the book entitled "Of Faith and Reason 80 Evidences supporting the prophet Joseph Smith" By Michael R. Ash.[
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:55 am
Quote: There are several reasons why knowledge of ancient Mesoamerica is somewhat limited. The harsh jungle terrain is just part of the problem. Money, or rather lack of money, is a major problem in locating, researching, and excavating archaeological sites. Many known sites have not been excavated by professional archaeologists because of the lack of funds. A third serious problem, as noted by National Geographic, is the looting of archaeological sites before professionals have had a chance to study them: "Looting still occurs frequently enough to deprive us of priceless knowledge of the fascinating ancient Maya civilization....In their efforts to slice beautiful stone carvings into portable, marketable-sized segmants, looters have totally destroyedd many precious hieroglyphic inscriptions." A fourth problem lies in the fact that many modern cities are built over archaeological remains. This practice is not wholly modern nature for it has been discovered that quite often Mesoamerican cities were built upon the other older Mesoamerican cities. Palenque, for instance, which was built by the Mayans after 600 AD, was also inhabited during Book of Mormon times. "Ruin after ruin among the Mayas has now been found to be built on top of earlier structures that do date back to Book of Mormon times." Text also taken from the book entitled "Of Faith and Reason 80 evidences to support the prophet Joseph Smith" By Michael R. Ash.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:59 pm
I think i will leave this to someone else to comment on i really don't want go any further. smile
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:47 pm
I don't see why people refuse to read a book, I guess it just baffles me.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:08 pm
Someoneiknow I don't see why people refuse to read a book, I guess it just baffles me. who said i didn't read your book? a burning in my bosom does not convert me neither does a whisper in my ears, scripture say's to test the spirits and it has shown it's self wanting in my personal experience. As i have said before i have not read all of the book of Mormon but if we are going to go into this as far a conversion issue then do please read all 40 of Ellens book's although i have not read them all doing so will still not make me believe she was a prophetess. Our heart's are desperately wicked and i wont adhere to mine
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:58 am
I don't think he was saying to read the book for a conversion, I think he was saying read it to form your own opinion about what it's about instead of taking other's opinions as your own. But if you've read it and don't agree with it, hey that's fine with me. I respect your opinion and glad that you are strong in your faith. smile
A question though, how are our hearts desperately wicked? I know that man is sinful, but I don't believe we are wicked to the core.
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:39 am
Shadows-shine I don't think he was saying to read the book for a conversion, I think he was saying read it to form your own opinion about what it's about instead of taking other's opinions as your own. But if you've read it and don't agree with it, hey that's fine with me. I respect your opinion and glad that you are strong in your faith. smile A question though, how are our hearts desperately wicked? I know that man is sinful, but I don't believe we are wicked to the core. Um the bible says our hearts are desperately wicked ill get you the verse when i get home later today from work
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:12 am
LordTalisEraphen Shadows-shine I don't think he was saying to read the book for a conversion, I think he was saying read it to form your own opinion about what it's about instead of taking other's opinions as your own. But if you've read it and don't agree with it, hey that's fine with me. I respect your opinion and glad that you are strong in your faith. smile A question though, how are our hearts desperately wicked? I know that man is sinful, but I don't believe we are wicked to the core. Um the bible says our hearts are desperately wicked ill get you the verse when i get home later today from work I think one of them may be Isaiah 29:13 or Matt. 15:20 Those are the only two that I could find that spoke saying something close to the effect that you said. Although I did find scriptures that support the fact that our hearts are what tell us what is righteousness Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened unto us the scriptures? and Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I think, with the scriptures, me MUST use our heart to tell what is righteousness. It is the only source we have, because our minds are the things that condemn us. If our hearts are wicked also, then we are in a sad state indeed, never coming unto righteousness.
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:17 am
That does not mean your heart can't be swayed either way. reread those scriptures the heart is passionate but this doesn't mean it can tell between good and evil... this is why we test the spirits! not to mention Issiah also says precept apon precept line apon line here little there alittle. The word of God is the only way to stay in line if not why would Christ say even the very elect could be deceived not to mention it also says that the saints would study the scripture daily... why would we need to study anything once we started rolling on feelings ? Our heart is desperately wicked without God we would certainly corrupt ourselves now that we know evil (Eden,Eve eating the fruit).
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
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