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Formerly called the NCS, this is a place for communists and socialists to talk about communism and socialism. 

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When Nothing Is Produced (article) Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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Comrade Kotka

Shirtless Fatcat

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:39 pm


A bit different to the usual articles/readings in the guild, but here's something of interest:
When Nothing Is Produced

Bourgeois society’s reduction of sexuality to the logic of (re)production results in a series of rigid dichotomies. Drawing on a rich history of radical theory, Marcel Stoetzler rejects sexual dimorphism and the gay/straight split to imagine a sexuality that is free to recreate itself.

Discuss!
(And if any bits of this confuse you, I will try my best to help clarify.)
I know it's long, but please read it all. ^^

Edit: If you haven't read the article, DON'T CRITICISE IT. I will ignore you. Seriously. However, if you have a question about terminology or something in the article, feel free to ask.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:01 pm


She's saying social science makes us sexual conservatives?

Quote:
In a society based on separation and isolation of atomised individuals who are precariously chained together on the basis of a set of neurotic projections (nation, religion, family, etc.) and the practices and institutions that undergird them, it seems unsurprising that Tweedledee will occasionally, perhaps increasingly, have sex without the involvement of Tweedledum, or even of another Tweedledee. This has made society’s defenders vilify masturbation as an anti-social form of subject–object identity that bypasses heterosexuality and the holy cow of sexual dimorphism. Apparently it threatens the healthy measure of neurosis that goes by the name of social cohesion.


Sounds like a cracy kook. I didn't read all of it though, short on time.

The Curse


Comrade Kotka

Shirtless Fatcat

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:36 pm


I don't understand what you mean by that at all. o_o

Maybe you should try to read it all and understand before commenting with insults, too...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:51 pm


Comrade Kotka
I don't understand what you mean by that at all. o_o

Maybe you should try to read it all and understand before commenting with insults, too...


She unleashed the insults, referring to everyone as neurotic because we identify by our 'nation, religion, family, etc'. Sorry, but valuing various attributes of your personal context isn't a mental disability.

The Curse


Partialist

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:27 pm


A man wrote the article, not a woman - a fairly pertinent and telling mistake, given the subject matter!

Anyway, "neurotic" isn't being used as an insult. It's used in an academic (and precisely 'social scientific') sense, referring to the developmental logic of those things, when understood through the kinds of social theories that incorporate both psychiatric and socio-political explanations in their methodologies. I think the writer is arguing that the 'character' of those things is neurotic, because they require an imaginary and projective, though insular and repressive symbolic dimension - they're all defense mechanisms, arguably from imaginary threats. So it's not about whether you're "valuing various attributes of your personal context", but rather how and why you're doing it.

In disagreeing, it's their logic that needs to be interrogated, but like with all academic writing, the difficulty is that you have to know exactly how they're using concepts in order to do that - arguing against their terms when they aren't using them in the 'common' sense is to make moot, reactionary points which don't really achieve anything in light of the overall argument...

/2c
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:41 pm


The Curse
Comrade Kotka
I don't understand what you mean by that at all. o_o

Maybe you should try to read it all and understand before commenting with insults, too...


She unleashed the insults, referring to everyone as neurotic because we identify by our 'nation, religion, family, etc'. Sorry, but valuing various attributes of your personal context isn't a mental disability.


More than that, it betrays a certain elitism saying that "I'm not disabled like you are."

In fact, what is called neuroses in the quote Curse made are socially determined ideologies, i.e., they are modes of thought that come together in a more or less coherent world-view which arrises on the back of practical experience and social pressure.

We all live in a class society, and so none of us are free from these things completely, that I have to carry out Stalinist-style purges on my thoughts is testamony to this. To dismiss or denegrate socially determined world-views such as the above as neuroses also misses the point, however.

Being socially determined, they can only be eliminated through the elimination of class society. I don't know if the link says anything about that, but from the quote, it seems as if it would merely be a fig-leaf of academic elitism if it were mentioned.

In short, the ills that arise from the differentiation of society into classes can only be done away with through the destruction of that very same class society.

To call them neuroses implies a desire to treat them in the manner of a shrink, and not to do away with them through the practical life of the working class in struggle against the exploiters.

Quote:
[bourgeois ideology] is... at best an evil inherited by the proletariat after its victorious struggle for class supremacy, whose worst sides the proletariat, just like the Commune, cannot avoid having to lop off at the earliest possible moment, until such time as a new generation, reared in new and free social conditions, will be able to throw the entire lumber of the state on the scrap-heap.


Engels said the above with regard to the state, and I feel it holds equally true for the rest of bourgeois culture.

Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet


Comrade Kotka

Shirtless Fatcat

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:46 pm


Louis-Auguste Robespierre

More than that, it betrays a certain elitism saying that "I'm not disabled like you are."

I don't think it's really implied that the author is above and beyond these things...

Louis-Auguste Robespierre

Being socially determined, they can only be eliminated through the elimination of class society. I don't know if the link says anything about that, but from the quote, it seems as if it would merely be a fig-leaf of academic elitism if it were mentioned.

Read it, go on!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:04 am


Louis-Auguste Robespierre
The Curse
Comrade Kotka
I don't understand what you mean by that at all. o_o

Maybe you should try to read it all and understand before commenting with insults, too...


She unleashed the insults, referring to everyone as neurotic because we identify by our 'nation, religion, family, etc'. Sorry, but valuing various attributes of your personal context isn't a mental disability.


More than that, it betrays a certain elitism saying that "I'm not disabled like you are."

In fact, what is called neuroses in the quote Curse made are socially determined ideologies, i.e., they are modes of thought that come together in a more or less coherent world-view which arrises on the back of practical experience and social pressure.

We all live in a class society, and so none of us are free from these things completely, that I have to carry out Stalinist-style purges on my thoughts is testamony to this. To dismiss or denegrate socially determined world-views such as the above as neuroses also misses the point, however.

Being socially determined, they can only be eliminated through the elimination of class society. I don't know if the link says anything about that, but from the quote, it seems as if it would merely be a fig-leaf of academic elitism if it were mentioned.

In short, the ills that arise from the differentiation of society into classes can only be done away with through the destruction of that very same class society.

To call them neuroses implies a desire to treat them in the manner of a shrink, and not to do away with them through the practical life of the working class in struggle against the exploiters.

Quote:
[bourgeois ideology] is... at best an evil inherited by the proletariat after its victorious struggle for class supremacy, whose worst sides the proletariat, just like the Commune, cannot avoid having to lop off at the earliest possible moment, until such time as a new generation, reared in new and free social conditions, will be able to throw the entire lumber of the state on the scrap-heap.


Engels said the above with regard to the state, and I feel it holds equally true for the rest of bourgeois culture.


Slow down slow down.

Now maybe I didn't read this right.

Did we... almost.. kinda.. just a little... agree?

The Curse


Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:18 am


The Curse

Slow down slow down.

Now maybe I didn't read this right.

Did we... almost.. kinda.. just a little... agree?

You criticised it from the right, I criticised it from the left.
Ageement only on the 'is wrong' part. Such agreement to be rescinded upon finding out you misrepresented the article.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:08 pm


Quote:
Bourgeois society’s reduction of sexuality to the logic of (re)production results in a series of rigid dichotomies. Drawing on a rich history of radical theory, Marcel Stoetzler rejects sexual dimorphism and the gay/straight split to imagine a sexuality that is free to recreate itself.


The function of sexuality is reproduction. Socialist society would not change that, in fact I think it would try to encourage that. The oppression of sexual minorities is not the result of capitalism (bourgeoisie society), but of class-based society, as Gracchvs correctly stated above. The issue with capitalism is that it commodifies sexuality and pollutes culture with it; businesses will find niche markets for any form of sexual deviancy and exploit them for profit. This is all done in the name of profit, without any regard to the social consequences and the consequent degeneration and increasing sexualization of culture.

Socialist society would eliminate the oppression of sexual minorities from vestiges of traditional moralism, as consistent with notions of social equality. However, socialist society would not and should not promote increased sexuality, either for minority or for so-called "traditional" couples, for its own sake. Eroticism and sexuality has already helped dumb down the population and create a culture where almost everything has sexual undertones because capitalism lets culture run rampant. There is much cleaning up to do in that regard.

Kistel


Comrade Kotka

Shirtless Fatcat

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:13 pm


iRage
The function of sexuality is reproduction.

Not necessarily... what about sexual urges that do not result in reproduction? (The most obvious being same-sex relations.)
Also, humans need not tie reproduction and sexuality together - technology such as birth control and IVF make this pretty clear.

Some of the rest of what you said was in the article, actually...

Did ANYONE read the whole thing? crying
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:02 pm


Quote:
what about sexual urges that do not result in reproduction?


Capitalism does a good job of promoting such today, with negative effects on society.

Quote:
Also, humans need not tie reproduction and sexuality together - technology such as birth control and IVF make this pretty clear.


Are you suggesting the state actively promote this view and promote sexual activity for non-reproductive purposes? eek

Kistel


The Curse

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:20 pm


iRage
Quote:
what about sexual urges that do not result in reproduction?


Capitalism does a good job of promoting such today, with negative effects on society.


Did you just blame STI's on capitalism?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:27 pm


The Curse
iRage
Quote:
what about sexual urges that do not result in reproduction?


Capitalism does a good job of promoting such today, with negative effects on society.


Did you just blame STI's on capitalism?


STI's ... ? question

Kistel

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MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism

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