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 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:07 am
This doctrine, somewhat exclusively taught by the LDS although I'm sure other religions not of Christianity teach it, is mainly over one thing. That we, as mortals, have the potential to become gods, even as our Father in Heaven is God. Is this doctrine false in so many realms, or does it hold many sources scripturally and anciently? Let's take a look: First of all, the Psalmist wrote: "Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6) That would appear pretty blunt and straight forward. Even Christ talked about this scripture to the to the pious Jews. Noted, is Dr. Keith Norman, who holds a PhD in early Christian studies from Duke University: "More than once pious Jews tried to stone Jesus when he hinted of his own divinity (John 8:58-59; 10:30-31), and Jesus defended this 'blasphemy' on the second occasion by quoting Psalms 82-6: "Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are gods?" (John 10:34). This saying he decribes as 'The Word of God' and furthermore 'the scripture cannot be broken'(v. 35). Jesus made no concessions to 'human nature' in his expectation of his disciples, and his central statement in the Sermon on the Mount remains the supreme challenge to mankind: 'Be ye therefore perfect; even as your Father in Heaven is pefect. (Matthew 5:48; italics added). If we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, we must become like our Heavenly Father--otherwise we would be less perfect. Does this thought hold with many early Christian church leaders? If this was the original thought during those ages, than we should be able to see signs of other Christian fathers believing in this profound doctrine. This would actually be the case though as noted below: Gregory of Nazianus taught: "I may become God to the same extent as He became man." Irenaeus also wrote that Jesus Christ became "what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." Clement of Alexander (c. AD 150-215) wrote that Jesus became man so that we might learn "how to become a God." The early Christian Origen wrote: Quote: And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is 'The God', and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. Hippolytus, Bishop of Portus, explained the righteous will become "a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved with lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease, for thou hast become God.... Whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou has been deified, and begotten unto immortality." The early Christian Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, a direct disciple of John the Revelator, wrote: Quote: We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods. How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one's duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is. Basil of Caesaria, notes Phillip Barlow, "preached that the Holy Spirit aids man in 'being made like to God--and highest of all, being made God.'" Even Athanasius, the champion defender of the "Trinity" doctrine formed at Nicea, taught that the Lord "assumed humanity that we might become God." Clement of Alexandria explained that the righteous are "given their reward and their honors.... because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of 'gods' since they are destined to be entroned with the other 'gods' who are ranked next below the savior." Even as late as the early part of the fourth century, Athanasius said that Christ "was made man that we might be made God." The early Christian writings on deification are so common that non-Mormon scholar G.L. Prestige claimed that the Primitive Christian Church "taught that the destiny of man was to become like God, and even to become deified." With such a prevelent amount of references from the early Christian fathers, it begs the question, "Did Christ teach this doctrine even to His own disciples?" It would be a question of perspective, but even apparently Joseph Smith got the concept of deification without any of the resources of all these Christian Fathers.
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:41 pm
I think a lot of people misinterpret and misunderstand this concept. When it says we will become gods, or the ye are gods, it doesn't mean we are taking Heavenly Father's place as THE God.
Also, it is my opinion that when it is stated that ye are gods, it is a simplified way of saying we receieved a glorified body when we are resurrected. And well, we are God's offspring, it even states so in Acts.
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:58 pm
Jesus deified Himself in the Bible.
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:15 pm
Phanari Jesus deified Himself in the Bible. By that you mean Jesus was always a deity so He didn't need to be deified?
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:46 pm
Someoneiknow Phanari Jesus deified Himself in the Bible. By that you mean Jesus was always a deity so He didn't need to be deified? I mean when He mentioned He was God and how anyone who can know that without being shown proof is Blessed.
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:53 am
Phanari Someoneiknow Phanari Jesus deified Himself in the Bible. By that you mean Jesus was always a deity so He didn't need to be deified? I mean when He mentioned He was God and how anyone who can know that without being shown proof is Blessed. He never said He was God though. He said He was the Son of God.
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:26 pm
But this is about the deification of ourselves, not Jesus Christ.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:01 am
We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:27 am
Someoneiknow This doctrine, somewhat exclusively taught by the LDS although I'm sure other religions not of Christianity teach it, is mainly over one thing. That we, as mortals, have the potential to become gods, even as our Father in Heaven is God. Is this doctrine false in so many realms, or does it hold many sources scripturally and anciently? Let's take a look:
First of all, the Psalmist wrote: "Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6)
That would appear pretty blunt and straight forward. Even Christ talked about this scripture to the to the pious Jews. Noted, is Dr. Keith Norman, who holds a PhD in early Christian studies from Duke University:
"More than once pious Jews tried to stone Jesus when he hinted of his own divinity (John 8:58-59; 10:30-31), and Jesus defended this 'blasphemy' on the second occasion by quoting Psalms 82-6: "Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are gods?" (John 10:34). This saying he decribes as 'The Word of God' and furthermore 'the scripture cannot be broken'(v. 35). Jesus made no concessions to 'human nature' in his expectation of his disciples, and his central statement in the Sermon on the Mount remains the supreme challenge to mankind: 'Be ye therefore perfect; even as your Father in Heaven is pefect. (Matthew 5:48; italics added).
If we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, we must become like our Heavenly Father--otherwise we would be less perfect.
Does this thought hold with many early Christian church leaders? If this was the original thought during those ages, than we should be able to see signs of other Christian fathers believing in this profound doctrine. This would actually be the case though as noted below:
Gregory of Nazianus taught: "I may become God to the same extent as He became man."
Irenaeus also wrote that Jesus Christ became "what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."
Clement of Alexander (c. AD 150-215) wrote that Jesus became man so that we might learn "how to become a God."
The early Christian Origen wrote:
Quote: And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is 'The God', and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype.
Hippolytus, Bishop of Portus, explained the righteous will become "a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved with lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease, for thou hast become God.... Whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou has been deified, and begotten unto immortality."
The early Christian Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, a direct disciple of John the Revelator, wrote:
Quote: We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods. How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one's duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.
Basil of Caesaria, notes Phillip Barlow, "preached that the Holy Spirit aids man in 'being made like to God--and highest of all, being made God.'"
Even Athanasius, the champion defender of the "Trinity" doctrine formed at Nicea, taught that the Lord "assumed humanity that we might become God."
Clement of Alexandria explained that the righteous are "given their reward and their honors.... because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of 'gods' since they are destined to be entroned with the other 'gods' who are ranked next below the savior."
Even as late as the early part of the fourth century, Athanasius said that Christ "was made man that we might be made God."
The early Christian writings on deification are so common that non-Mormon scholar G.L. Prestige claimed that the Primitive Christian Church "taught that the destiny of man was to become like God, and even to become deified."
With such a prevelent amount of references from the early Christian fathers, it begs the question, "Did Christ teach this doctrine even to His own disciples?" It would be a question of perspective, but even apparently Joseph Smith got the concept of deification without any of the resources of all these Christian Fathers. That's why it is talking about that we have the potential to become diefied...Why else would Jesus say "Be ye perfect, as my Father is"
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:28 am
Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be!
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:42 pm
Shadows-shine Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be! Not until the Second Coming.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:45 pm
Phanari Shadows-shine Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be! Not until the Second Coming. so you believe we can become gods then.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:47 pm
Someoneiknow Phanari Shadows-shine Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be! Not until the Second Coming. so you believe we can become gods then. Nope. I do, however believe that we will become like the Angels in Heaven then.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:49 pm
Phanari Someoneiknow Phanari Shadows-shine Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be! Not until the Second Coming. so you believe we can become gods then. Nope. I do, however believe that we will become like the Angels in Heaven then. then we will not be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Thus we will be sinning because we are denying a direct commandment from God.
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:51 pm
Someoneiknow Phanari Someoneiknow Phanari Shadows-shine Phanari We're not in the slightest bit deified. Jesus, on the other hand, is. And no we're not deified yet, but we have the potential to be! Not until the Second Coming. so you believe we can become gods then. Nope. I do, however believe that we will become like the Angels in Heaven then. then we will not be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Thus we will be sinning because we are denying a direct commandment from God. Are you saying the angels aren't perfect? God says we'll be perfect, yes. He never says we'll be just like Him though.
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