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I have a few gripes with parts of this new constitution, specifically with the part that forces members to not post contrary views to the ones expressed in the constitution. When members are deprived of free speech and expression, this guild is no longer a place for education and exploring different theories, it becomes a place for brainwashing people with a specific ideology. Intellectual freedom for socialists and communists is far more important then strict ideological adherence. These rules are an insult to the less extreme Marxist and non-Marxist members of the guild. It has little to do with what I or anyone else personally thinks of these positions; the issue is with forcing new members to adopt hard-line Marxism, and most importantly, not allowing members to express their viewpoints if those perspectives are in opposition to hard-line Marxism.



If class is being defined in the Marxian sense as a group of people sharing a common relationship to labor and capital, and you are requiring that we all hold the belief that we need to abolish the class that owns the means of production and derives its livelihood from such, then I am perfectly fine with this condition. However, as I have seen some argue in here, if you are defining the abolition of class as the abolition of any form of rank or hierarchy in society, then I cannot approve of making this a required perspective for the members of this guild.



The nature of the nation can change under a socialist society just as the nature and role of the state changes in a socialist society. A nation can theoretically comprise any group that has a shared culture, objective, shared history and common values and can be multi-ethnic. Perhaps the character of the nation can change under a socialist society. Economic nationalism is often used to resist international capitalism and foreign corporate takeover of a sovereign nations resources. Neoliberals and global capitalists have just as much distaste for national divisions (because they inhibit the free flow of capital and make it more difficult to conduct business) as international communists do. This is not to say nationalism has not been used to divide the working class, but even class loyalty, like national loyalties, can be used to mislead people. Forcing members to be anti-nationalist or against the concept of nations is ridiculous, especially given the amount of left-wing nationalist ideologies that have existed throughout history.

And please, no strawman responses to this post by making the claim that all socialists with moderate nationalist tendencies are Nazis, or that nationalism is racism and the concept of nation is directly tied to the concept of race.



That’s ironic, as pro-free market and libertarian capitalists often hold the view that racism is irrational and counterproductive and believe it to be the result of institutionalized conservatism and racism (through government policy and the promotion of such), and not inherent in capitalism. The capitalist will do business with anyone, regardless of their race or sexual orientation if it is profitable. The capitalist will also tend to hire anyone who will help generate the most profit for the company, regardless of their ethnic background. It’s ridiculous to think that all socialists will, and should as a requirement to be a member of this guild, share the view that there is a constant capitalist conspiracy to promote racism within the ranks of the working class in order to divide them. Racism in the lower classes stems from the uneducated, anti-intellectual masses that use such concepts as a scapegoat to explain their poor or deteriorating living conditions.

Gracchvs, like the Leninists and Marxist-Leninists throughout history, is attempting to strip us of our freedom of expression and thought while imposing his ideology upon us, quickly silencing any opposition to such as “counterrevolutionary”, or in the case of this guild, “trolling”. Because this is the Neo-Communist, Communist and Socialist guild, and not the Orthodox Marxist, Leninist and Trotskyist guild, we should not be forced to adopt hard-line Marxist perspectives to simply be a member of this guild.

I see.

Which is what I, including Rob and Herobane, are opposed to. Earlier today, you were talking about limiting what Herobane could say in the guild regarding his positive views on nationalism, suggesting instead that such views (which are contrary to your "socialist morality") be restricted to a new NCS community guild.



Yet nowhere did I claim you were going to ban existing members.



Oddly enough, I would not know that because I am not in the CC.



In any case, they are alienating to people such as Herobane and me, and potentially to any non-Marxist socialists wanting to join the guild.



The only part of my post you can potentially label as "trolling" is the paragraph likening the policies in this constitution to those of democratic centralism and Leninism.



Critiquing a proposed guild constitution =/= claiming you are going to purge members of the guild.

Hmmm... what're other people's objections to it? I clearly missed some argument on chat or something.

I even let in a new member today who specifically said she liked/agreed with the front page of the guild with them on it. ^^ Well yesterday. Your today though, I guess. Woo!

Anyway, okay. So let's say there was a problem with these points... how would you rephrase them? Or would you just scrap them altogether? (Where 'you' = all those who have a problem with it...)

I could deny that is what it does, but that would be silly, as everything which descriminates against a given view must necessarily descriminate against those who hold that view.

However, if I were to argue from an abstract point of view, I woud say that it is, in fact, targeting the ideologies for exclusion and that the people thus excluded are excluded because of the ideology.

But that is merely the above put in the words of a sophist.

Considering that you will comment on issues long since passed over--thus illustrating that you have read the prior conversation--there is no reason to accept your story as true.

I suggested a means of dealing with the situation that I subsequently dropped. That you focus on something I suggested shows your true colours. The whole complaint about me wanting to somehow silence you--or anyone else--for your views is exposed for the farce it is when you keep hanging on to a former position of mine, moreover, a position which was advocated as a stop-gap until a rule could be made for that issue.

Rather than this being about silencing anyone--and how hard did I fight to get you to rejoin the guild? That should be enough proof I have no intentions of doing anything of the sort--this is about me. When you first entered the chat you indicated that you are a rabid sexist who thinks women worth s**t. This hurt your ego because you expected to come here and be seen as the saviour instantly. Instead, recognised for the utterly abhorent views you hold, your admiration for fascism (under the codeword 'corporatism') and your defence of privilege you lash out, grasping for excuses to oppose me and everything I do.

Your politics being empty, your personal views abhorent you were not recieved as the saviour you expected, so all you can do is try to beat the person with the clearest and most defined politics here.

So I cop s**t off you as both revenge for your wounded pride being regected socially, and because you were rejected politically.

Combined with your natural propensity for trolling, it is easy to see how everything you say about me is most likely dishonest and seeking to create drama. We must look at everything you say in this prism.

To this end you want as lax requirements as possible for the guild, under the mistaken view that you can play mediator between the fascists and other opponents of genuine socialism who will inevtiably come in and the socialists and communists already here.

Compare that to my points which while defined are broad--despite your claims to the contrary. With these we demand people actually be socialist, and we spell out that that means. They allow much variation while having a clearly set boundary.

This a direct threat to your dream of a messianic reception, because it means that people must be socialist, rather than just leftists who you can be easilly moulded without knowing anything.

"v. Socialists believe in state, public, worker or community ownership and control of the means of production, and understand it is both possible and desirable to abolish capitalism and class society through the elimination of private property in the means of production. "
Personally I don't think any significant meaning is lost with this rephrasing, so if it will appease the guild, then so be it. Other people: opinions please? I'd also be okay with the capitalism -> class-society suggested for the same reasons.

As for Hero's objection... I don't think it actually does what he says it does? Although I don't quite understand this 'targeting the people behind it'.
As written in the OP there, I'll go through the nationalism section:

"the lie that the people of a given nation have common interests serves only to divide the international working class and prevent common action."
- Now I assume you agree that it is not the case that people of a given nation have common interests (that are different to those of people belonging to other nations). This part highlights the lie that the elites/ruling class of a 'nation' have the same interests of the working class (or indeed other classes) of that nation (I use these terms for the benefit of all socialists). This ties nicely into either of the point 'v.'s suggested.
"It is both possible and desirable to eliminate nationalism."
YES, it's possible to eliminate nationalism. There needs to be no specifically Marxist or otherwise explanation for this, just a historical one; nationalism arises out of certain conditions and can be eliminated in others. It is desirable to eliminate a need for an 'us' and an 'other' as defined by arbitrary geopolitical boundaries and sometimes engineered culture.

As an aside: Sorry I haven't been around much but I'm busy with uni stuff... although I'll be popping in to help sort all this out, I guess. *salutes*

Edit: And chill with the personal nastiness. Keep it in the realm of debate...