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Formerly called the NCS, this is a place for communists and socialists to talk about communism and socialism. 

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Herobane

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:39 pm


The NCS is the greatest thing that ever happend to me.


The is definitely the guild you want to be in. Tell all of your friends!



TrOtZkY4LiFe
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:48 pm


I agree Hero. Good work.

Intermundia


Herobane

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:50 pm


Thank you Rob. You know Rob all of us here love and respect you. Personally I think you should be the guild leader.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:55 pm


Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

King To Be Hailed


Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:14 am


King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:34 am


Rob. More. Seriously.

Herobane


Director Mann

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:25 pm


Hero you needs to clam down. You're to easy to rile. You're like nearly the perfect person to troll. In fact I would have already done it if I had a reason to troll you. But don't keep getting mad at everything until you give me a reason.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:51 pm


Louis-Auguste Robespierre
King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.

King To Be Hailed


Intermundia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:27 pm


King To Be Hailed
Louis-Auguste Robespierre
King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.



Actually I'd just like to point out that Lenin was just from a well off family. His parents were teachers.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:33 pm


Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed
Louis-Auguste Robespierre
King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.



Actually I'd just like to point out that Lenin was just from a well off family. His parents were teachers.

Under a technical Marxist view, Teachers are subjects of the bourgeois state, and therefore, are bourgeois themselves. Still, I understand your point, and I'll restate. They were both from low-ranking nobilities.

King To Be Hailed


Intermundia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:37 pm


King To Be Hailed
Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed
Louis-Auguste Robespierre
King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.



Actually I'd just like to point out that Lenin was just from a well off family. His parents were teachers.

Under a technical Marxist view, Teachers are subjects of the bourgeois state, and therefore, are bourgeois themselves. Still, I understand your point, and I'll restate. They were both from low-ranking nobilities.


The term "bourgeois" means capitalist. Neither of his parents nor himself- owned a means of production.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:19 pm


Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed
Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed
Louis-Auguste Robespierre
King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was a political imbecile with a messiah complex. That said, I welcome you as my comrade.

Gonna have to back that up with examples.

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.



Actually I'd just like to point out that Lenin was just from a well off family. His parents were teachers.

Under a technical Marxist view, Teachers are subjects of the bourgeois state, and therefore, are bourgeois themselves. Still, I understand your point, and I'll restate. They were both from low-ranking nobilities.


The term "bourgeois" means capitalist. Neither of his parents nor himself- owned a means of production.

Give me a second. Marx wrote on this subject, and stated that those who work directly for a capitalist dominated government should be considered to be in the same class themselves, despite not necessarily being bourgeois. Some guy was yammering about it last YCL meeting I was at, so I should remember the document name...
Edit: I think I'm referring to Marx talking about the petty-bourgeois intelligentsia, which includes professors, teachers, and the like. Still can't find a document, quite sorry...
Edit2: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch01.htm

There.

In the Communist Manifesto, Marx also mentions how the intelligentsia are the paid wage-laborers of the bourgeoisie, but in context, this statement makes it clear that they belong with the capitalist class, not the proletariat.

King To Be Hailed


Intermundia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:19 pm


King To Be Hailed
Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed
Comrade Rob
King To Be Hailed

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.



Actually I'd just like to point out that Lenin was just from a well off family. His parents were teachers.

Under a technical Marxist view, Teachers are subjects of the bourgeois state, and therefore, are bourgeois themselves. Still, I understand your point, and I'll restate. They were both from low-ranking nobilities.


The term "bourgeois" means capitalist. Neither of his parents nor himself- owned a means of production.

Give me a second. Marx wrote on this subject, and stated that those who work directly for a capitalist dominated government should be considered to be in the same class themselves, despite not necessarily being bourgeois. Some guy was yammering about it last YCL meeting I was at, so I should remember the document name...
Edit: I think I'm referring to Marx talking about the petty-bourgeois intelligentsia, which includes professors, teachers, and the like. Still can't find a document, quite sorry...
Edit2: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch01.htm

There.

In the Communist Manifesto, Marx also mentions how the intelligentsia are the paid wage-laborers of the bourgeoisie, but in context, this statement makes it clear that they belong with the capitalist class, not the proletariat.


Ahhh. Okay point well taken comrade.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:10 am


King To Be Hailed

He opposed the Politburo's decision to instate Comrade Stalin, and instead went off to Mexico to have a hissy fit and called for the complete destruction of the socialist state (on the very eve of the nazi invasion, mind you).

His political imbecility is clear when one takes into context that he would say anything to discredit the Party. He even declared in 1934 that Stalin was responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. He was a pawn of all sorts of anti-communist forces. His theory, that of permanent revolution, is not a new concept within Marxism, and the man himself would have made a horrid leader of the Soviet Union. The only reason people even consider him capable as a leader is because Trotsky, full of himself, assigned himself a planetary and historic role, while even Lenin considered him politically harmful. I tend to think this has to do with his feeling that while him and Lenin were both of bourgeois origins, Stalin had no right to be in that position because he was what we'd call a bumpkin. Of course, that's not back-uppable, it's just my opinion. Seeking character guides, one should look at the quotes of Leon Sedov, his son.

Went to Mexico to have a hissy fit?
The man was exiled internally, and then externally. Everywhere he went the Comintern fought to have his passport revoked, and STILL he fought as an external faction of the 3int until Hitler came to power.

I also find amazing this idea that he called for the destruction of the SU.
In 1938 Trotsky wrote: "If tomorrow the bourgeois-fascist grouping [in the CPSU], the 'faction of Butenko,' so to speak, should attempt the conquest of power, the 'faction of Reiss' [Trotskyists] inevitably would align itself on the opposete side of the barricades. Although it would find itself temporarily the ally of Stalin, it would nevertheless defend not the Bonapartist clique but the social base of the USSR, i.e., the property wrenched away from the capitalists and transformed into state property."
Are these the words of one who wants to destroy the Soviet Union?

How about this:
In Defence of Marxism

What do we defend in the USSR? Not that in which it resembles the capitalist countries but precisely that in which it differs from them. In Germany also we advocate an uprising against the ruling bureaucracy, but
only in order immediately to overthrow capitalist property. In the USSR the overthrow of the bureaucracy is indispensable for the preservation of
state property. Only in this sense do we stand for the defense of the USSR.

There is not one among us who doubts that the Soviet workers should defend the state property, not only against the parasitism of the bureaucracy, but also against the tendencies toward private ownership, for example, on the part of the kolkhoz aristocracy. But after all, foreign policy is the continuation of policy at home. If in domestic policy we correlate defense of the conquests of the October Revolution with irreconcilable struggle against the bureaucracy, then we must do the same thing in foreign policy as well. To be sure, Bruno R., proceeding from the fact that ”bureaucratic collectivism” has already been victorious all along the line, assures us that no one threatens state property, because Hitler (and Chamberlain?) is as much interested, you see, in preserving it as Stalin. Sad to say, Bruno R.’s assurances are frivolous. In event of victory Hitler will in all probability begin by demanding the return to German capitalists of all the property expropriated from them; then he will secure a similar restoration of property for the English, the French and the Belgians so as to reach an agreement with them at the expense of the USSR; finally, he will make Germany the contractor of the most important state enterprises in the USSR in the interests of the German military machine. Right now Hitler is the ally and friend of Stalin; but should Hitler, with the aid of Stalin, come out victorious on the Western Front, he would on the morrow turn his guns against the USSR.
Finally Chamberlain, too, in similar circumstances would act no differently from Hitler.


And now on to the stuff about Hitler. Again, I will let Trotsky speak for himself:
In 1928, when the opposition was expelled from the party, Trotsky said to those that declared the Comintern dead and that the revolution had been overthrown:
"Naturally, such intervention [trying to win over the members of the Communist Parties] is out of the question if the point of departure is that the party as a whole has degenerated, that the party is a corpse. With such an evaluation of the party, it is absurd to address oneself to it, and still more absurd to wait for it, or for this or that section of it, that is, primarily, for its proletarian core, to heed or understand you. To conquer this core, however, is to conquer the party."

In 1933 he wrote:
"During the last few years--appropriately enough--our opponents[within the Left Opposition] have told us more than once that we 'are losing time in vain' by occupying ourselves with curing the Comintern. We never promised anybody that we would cure the Comintern. We only refused, until the decisive test, to pronounce the sick as dead or hopelessly ill."

That test was Hitler's rise to power, or rather, the reaction to it by the Comintern and the KPD:
"Only after the German Communist Party, which had been gathering millions of votes. proved incapable of offering even the least resistance to Hitler, and after the Comintern refused to recognize not only the defeat of the proletariat (in reality the victory of Hitler is the greatest defeat of the proletariat in the history of the world!) and replacedthe analysis of its mistakes and crimes by a new campaign of persecution and slander against real Marxists--only after this did we say: nothing can save these people any more.... The historical judgement on the Comintern has ben pronounced. There is no appeal from this verdict."

And you are right to say that Permanent Revolution is not his, but rather it is Marx's very own. Everyone knows of his 'revolution in permanence' speech. It was even contained in embryo in the Manifesto, and more clearly in the draft version of the Manifesto.

Let's compare the two to see how different they are:
The Stalinist School of Falsification Revisited
In Trotsky's view, because of the uneven and combined development of the world economy, the bourgeoisie of the backward countries [are tied] to the feudal and imperialist interests, thereby preventing it from carrying out the fundamental tasks of the bourgeois revolution--democracy, agrarian revolution and national emancipation. In the presence of an aroused peasantry and a combative working class, each of these goals would directly threaten the political and economic dominance of the capitalist class. The tasks of the bourgeois revolution can be solved only by the alliance of the peasantry and the proletariat.

Marxism holds that there can only be one dominant class in the state. Since, as the Communist Manifesto states, the proletariat is the only consistently revolutionary class, this alliance must take the form of the dictatorship of the proletariiat, supported by the peasantry. In carrying out the democratic tasks of the revolution, the proletarian state must inevitably make "despotic inroads into the rights of bourgeois property" (e.g., expropriation of landlords), and thus the revolution directly passes over to socialist tasks, without pausing at any arbitrary "stages" or, as Lenin put it, without "Chinese wall" being erected between the bourgeois and proletarian phases. Thus the revolution becomes permanent, eventually leading to the complete aboolition of classes (socialism).

The Principles of Communism

Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution, and through this, the direct or indirect dominance of the proletariat. Direct in England, where the proletarians are already a majority of the people. Indirect in France and Germany, where the majority of the people consists not only of proletarians, but also of small peasants and petty bourgeois who are in the process of falling into the proletariat, who are more and more dependent in all their political interests on the proletariat, and who must, therefore, soon adapt to the demands of the proletariat. Perhaps this will cost a second struggle, but the outcome can only be the victory of the proletariat.

Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat. The main measures, emerging as the necessary result of existing relations, are the following:
[list of measures]
It is impossible, of course, to carry out all these measures at once. But one will always bring others in its wake. Once the first radical attack on private property has been launched, the proletariat will find itself forced to go ever further, to concentrate increasingly in the hands of the state all capital, all agriculture, all transport, all trade. All the foregoing measures are directed to this end; and they will become practicable and feasible, capable of producing their centralizing effects to precisely the degree that the proletariat, through its labor, multiplies the country’s productive forces.

Finally, when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation, private property will disappear of its own accord, money will become superfluous, and production will so expand and man so change that society will be able to slough off whatever of its old economic habits may remain.

They are both saying this: When a proletariat exists, and the bourgeois-democratic revolution has not been completed yet, it falls to the proletariat to perform the tasks of the bourgeois revolution. But in so doing, it will by necessity overstep the bounds of the bourgeois revolution and will begin on socialist tasks. In so doing, the democratic revolution becomes a proletarian revolution.

Now as to whether he would have been a good or bad leader of the SU, I can't say. But he was the man who built the Red Army and he was the man who's politics history has vindicated.

And the rest... That is just stupid. Trotsky called for Soviet democracy, not for this or that person to be put in power. He wanted to extend the revolution internationally and to remove the bureaucratic privileges that Stalin implemented.

Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet


King To Be Hailed

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:07 pm


Trotsky was politically harmful to the well-being of the Soviet Union, whose politburo saw fit to instate Stalin as opposed to Trotsky. Stalin's rule was constantly running under the principles of Democratic Centralism advocated by Lenin. Stalin never had supreme power, and any bureaucratic privileges Stalin held had been approved for him (and ended up being handy come the invasion of the Nazis). Trotsky's labelling of the order in the USSR is flawed. This is my belief. I see no reason to believe that the red bourgeoisie he saw existed. If anything, he only demonized them because the man was a sore loser. The true downfall of Socialism came with the revisionist policies of Khruschev. Stalin simply made the right choices. Trotsky's policies would have run the entire thing into the ground. Even the Great Lenin would not back up Trotsky's bid for power. How can I believe he was correct if the Great Lenin did not see him fit? How can I deny the incredible successes of Stalin?

I do not idolize Stalin, but I see him as being the proper leader for the USSR at the time. Trotsky's ideas had no place given the situation.

Trotsky repeatedly blamed the KPD for allowing the Nazis to rise through their lack of alliance with the Social Democrats. Was Trotsky aware that it was the Social Democrats who blocked any merging of powers, with Stalin only changing his mind after it had become clear that they were akin to the fascists, though without the boot to stomp with? Of course he was. But Trotsky was a propagandist, and he knew what information to leave out.

For the record, Trotsky organized the Red Army, yes. And that is an excellent task! But Stalin himself served well during the Civil War, as he was deployed to various significant fronts and managed them properly. The "history" of Stalin that Trotskyists uphold was formed by Nazi-paid American newspaper conglomerates. How can I trust them? How can any self respecting communist trust them? Stalin's politics created a mighty nation and an invigorated proletariat. I would say his politics have been vindicated just fine. I see no problem with the decisions made under the post-Lenin Politburo, and therefore see problem with Trotsky's assertions.
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MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism

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