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Formerly called the NCS, this is a place for communists and socialists to talk about communism and socialism. 

Tags: Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Political, Left 

Reply MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism
Thoughts On: The State and Revolution.

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Intermundia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:06 am


For the past week or so I've been indulged in reading - what I feel to be- Lenin's crowning work "The State and Revolution Although the work is unfinished (Lenin was only able to finish 6 of the 7 chapters before October) It is still a book any student of Marxism should thoroughly read.

Throughout the book. Lenin gives his interpretation of Marx and Engels on a series of topics regarding the State in relation to the Proletariat. He cites From The Civil War in France as his primary source in combating the opportunist trends of Kautsky and the reformism of Bernstein.

While reading I couldn't help but compare Kautsky to the current trend the CPUSA and other socialist parties are taking here in the united states. Most of these parties claiming to be Leninist, have actually taken from their programs the revolutionary fervor and have degenerated into the very aspects Lenin mercilessly attacks in this book. Take for example Sam Webb's (Chairman of the CPUSA) recent speech.

Sam Webb
Path to socialism

We are re-envisioning the path to socialism and socialist society, based on present day challenges and a critical examination of the socialist experience in the 20th century. What are some of its main elements?

Our vision is of a society that is peaceful, democratic, economically just and efficient, and ecologically sustainable. Our socialist goal privileges social solidarity, economic security and sustainability, equality, cooperation, respect for difference, and peace.

In our view, socialism is not simply a good idea, but an overriding necessity for humankind to find timely solutions to problems that threatens its very future – massive inequality and poverty, global warming, war and nuclear proliferation, energy and resource depletion, pandemic diseases, and so forth.

There are neither universal paths to nor universal models of socialism. Socialism has to grow out of the soil of a particular country, at a particular time, and in particular set of circumstances. Our country will be no exception. We will follow our own distinct nationally specific path.

Socialism must settle the “property question” (from capitalist to socialist property relations or to put it differently, from a capitalist to a socialist mode of production) to be sure. Every revolution must accomplish this essential task, and ours will be no different.

But how this is done and the pace by which it proceeds largely depends on concrete circumstances. At socialism’s dawn in any country and then long into the transition to socialism I expect that a mixed economy, operating in a regulated socialist market and combining different forms of socialist, cooperative, and private property, will prevail, albeit with tensions, contradictions, and dangers.

Such ownership relations and market mechanisms by no means preclude economic planning and democratic control. It is hard, in fact, to imagine how the transformation of the economy can be successfully tackled without democratic planning.

While political supremacy of the working class and its allies is an imperative, once acquired its task isn’t to smash the state into so many pieces, but rather to transform the class content of state structures; extend democratic rights into the economic, social and cultural spheres; enact new democratic forms of participation; and finish the democratic tasks left unfinished by capitalism – especially the elimination of racial and gender inequality.

I stress this because in the American mind, the idea that socialism and democracy are incompatible has widespread currency. And this perception can’t be ascribed solely to ruling-class propaganda. Socialist societies have had democratic shortcomings, too often major ones.

The path to socialism in our country will be long, laced at every turn with massive struggles on many levels and involve a wide array of class and social forces. It will proceed – not straightforwardly, not smoothly, not without reversals, but through stages and at each stage of struggle the balance of power will hopefully tip to the advantage of the working class and people.

Rather than one final conflict triggered by a generalized economic breakdown, I envision a series of connected political, economic, and social crises compressed in time and large in scale that result in a crises of confidence and legitimacy in capitalism and its institutional forms on the part of millions.

Such a rupture of power won’t settle everything once and for all, but it will constitute a decisive turn in a transitional process toward socialism.

Decades ago socialist revolutions grew out of economic catastrophes and major wars. But communists, going back to the 19th Century, never believed that armed struggle and civil war were the only or the preferred avenue to socialism.

“The worker,” Marx said in a speech in Amsterdam in 1872, “must one day conquer political supremacy in order… But we do not assert that the attainment of this end requires identical means. We know that one has to take into consideration the institutions, mores, and traditions of the different countries, and we do not deny that there are countries like England and America and if I am familiar with your institutions, Holland, where labor may attain its new goal by peaceful means.”

I would add that in recent years radical social transformations in relatively peaceful circumstances have occurred in Latin America.

There the force of an active, organized, and overwhelming majority of the working class and its allies combined with the winning of bridgeheads in state structures, including the military, have isolated elites, dislodged neo-liberal governments from power, and cleared the ground, so far peacefully, for social and socialist transformations.

We believe that such an outcome is possible here too. In fact, it is hard to imagine a non-peaceful path to socialism in our country.

Obviously, socialism isn’t imminent. As I see it, we aren’t living in an era of revolution, but rather an era of reform, including possibly radical reform, marked at its beginning by the election of the first African American president.

Six months into the Obama presidency, I would say without hesitation that the landscape, atmosphere, conversation, and agenda have strikingly changed compared to the previous eight years.


He Continues on to say how Obama "has created new democratic space for peace, equality, and economic justice struggles." and then at the end of his speech had the audacity to proclaim:

Sam Webb
As for our radical disposition, we are as radical as reality itself. And reality tells us that our main task is to assist in bringing the weight of the working class and other democratic forces to impress their interests on the struggle for reforms.


These men and women are not radical, they are opportunist by aligning themselves with the bourgeois-democrats in saying that they are our only way to political power and in that same respect reformist as well. And within all this claim to be a Marxist-Leninist party.

I like to take this opportunity to remind those in the CPUSA of the work in Lenin's The State and Revolution How use of the bourgeoisie government could not and will never serve the intrests of the working class.

Lenin
In capitalist society, providing it develops under the most favourable conditions, we have a more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always hemmed in by the narrow limits set by capitalist exploitation, and consequently always remains, in effect, a democracy for the minority, only for the propertied classes, only for the rich. Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. Owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, the modern wage slaves are so crushed by want and poverty that "they have nothing to do with democracy", "nothing to do with politics"; in the ordinary, peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participation in public and political life.


I suggest the book to everyone who is interested in learning of revolutionary politics to at least flip this book. The information displayed in this work is timeless and to quote the books introduction "The problems considered in the vibrant, muddled and dangerous chapters of 'The State and Revolution' await solution."
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:40 am


Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?

Dis Domnu


Miza_Radioaktiv
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:15 am


Dis Domnu
Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?


This is it. I've been reading it. It's actually one of my favorites.
That's the problem with the parties today. They will always find a way to stay low and allow the bourgeois-leftists to stay in power. The actual advancement of socialism is something they only speak of and never really act upon.

In other words, most CPs today = fail.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:20 am


Dis Domnu
Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?

So much for lookiing through the guild.

Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet


Dis Domnu

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:23 am


Louis-Auguste Robespierre
Dis Domnu
Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?

So much for lookiing through the guild.


So much for not being a jackass.

This is your safe-haven? The place where you taunt people who want to learn for not already knowing things? Good job, jackass.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:24 am


Miza_Radioaktiv
Dis Domnu
Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?


This is it. I've been reading it. It's actually one of my favorites.
That's the problem with the parties today. They will always find a way to stay low and allow the bourgeois-leftists to stay in power. The actual advancement of socialism is something they only speak of and never really act upon.

In other words, most CPs today = fail.


Thanks much. biggrin

Dis Domnu


Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:25 am


Dis Domnu
Louis-Auguste Robespierre
Dis Domnu
Now this is something that sounds interesting.

Can these writings be found online anywhere, or are they solidly trapped in paper pages?

So much for lookiing through the guild.


So much for not being a jackass.

This is your safe-haven? The place where you taunt people who want to learn for not already knowing things? Good job, jackass.

You said you were going to look through the guild to bring yourself up-to-date.

You obviously haven't.

So much for giving a s**t about the guild and the community.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:29 am


And I did look through the guild. No. I didn't read EVERY SINGLE post, or remember every single link. I read through some Marxist stuff in the reading materials/learning center thread, and I got busy. This weekend is the first time I've had to sit down and read (Dune = <3) for a while.

I have no need, or even a desire, to read and remember every single post in this guild, or any guild on Gaia. It's an anime forum, for ******** sake. You expecting people to remember everything they've read is... ridiculous.

Dis Domnu


Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:37 am


Aww, defensive.


Do, not at all. I do, however, expect people to remember that there are a few threads packed with links to major marxist works. After all, if you have gone, even briefly through the fist page or OP of every thread on the first page of the guild... You would know they exist.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:11 pm


Louis-Auguste Robespierre
Aww, defensive.


Do, not at all. I do, however, expect people to remember that there are a few threads packed with links to major marxist works. After all, if you have gone, even briefly through the fist page or OP of every thread on the first page of the guild... You would know they exist.


Aww, jackass.

Finding one particular link is far different from knowing there are threads with links. Who woulda thought.

It's okay Gracchvs, we know that you're just another Pockybot, so we don't actually expect you to live in reality. It's cool. Go back to your conspiracy theories about how I'm a libertarian nazi Jew.

Dis Domnu


Intermundia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:21 pm


Miza_Radioactive
In other words, most CPs today = fail.



All Communist Parties in America=Fail.

What bothers me is this:

Sam Webb
While political supremacy of the working class and its allies is an imperative, once acquired its task isn’t to smash the state into so many pieces, but rather to transform the class content of state structures; extend democratic rights into the economic, social and cultural spheres; enact new democratic forms of participation; and finish the democratic tasks left unfinished by capitalism – especially the elimination of racial and gender inequality.


Compared to:

Lenin
The words, "to smash the bureaucratic-military machine", briefly express the principal lesson of Marxism regarding the tasks of the proletariat during a revolution in relation to the state. And this is the lesson that has been not only completely ignored, but positively distorted by the prevailing, Kautskyite, “interpretation” of Marxism!


And from Marx:

Karl Marx
.. If you look at the last chapter of my Eighteenth Brumaire you will find that I say that the next attempt of the French revolution will be no longer, as before, to transfer the bureaucratic-military machine from one hand to another, but to smash it“ [My italics] , and this is essential for every real people's revolution on the Continent.


The CPUSA very ardently clings on to a quote from Marx reguarding the American working class.

Karl Marx
“The worker must one day conquer political supremacy in order… But we do not assert that the attainment of this end requires identical means. We know that one has to take into consideration the institutions, mores, and traditions of the different countries, and we do not deny that there are countries like England and America and if I am familiar with your institutions, Holland, where labor may attain its new goal by peaceful means.”


Given the political climate of the time, such a peaceful revolution might have been possible. However, America has since then has become a very different place. Sam Webb in his speech quotes Engels in saying that "We cannot cling on to the theory of yesterday"

There is a difference between clinging to the theories of yesterday and using said theories as stepping stones that the CPUSA does not see. The theory of dialectical materialism is timeless for it teaches that nothing stays the same. This is true. Learning how to apply Marxist theory to real life is part of the challenge of winning we of the working class a victory. Part of this is knowing what will and will not work. Submitting to the capitalist political system has never worked in winning a workers state and will continue so to fail because our interests do not coincide with the state and this is a crucial point the CPUSA has forgotten! Obama will not win us proletarian democracy, only we will. By taking the bureaucratic state apparatus and smashing it.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:48 pm


Comrade Rob
Given the political climate of the time, such a peaceful revolution might have been possible. However, America has since then has become a very different place. Sam Webb in his speech quotes Engels in saying that "We cannot cling on to the theory of yesterday"

There is a difference between clinging to the theories of yesterday and using said theories as stepping stones that the CPUSA does not see. The theory of dialectical materialism is timeless for it teaches that nothing stays the same. This is true. Learning how to apply Marxist theory to real life is part of the challenge of winning we of the working class a victory. Part of this is knowing what will and will not work. Submitting to the capitalist political system has never worked in winning a workers state and will continue so to fail because our interests do not coincide with the state and this is a crucial point the CPUSA has forgotten! Obama will not win us proletarian democracy, only we will. By taking the bureaucratic state apparatus and smashing it.


It is important to append ot the quote by Marx another quote by Engels:
Preface to the English edition of Capital
Surely, at such a moment, the voice ought to be heard of a man whose whole theory is the result of a lifelong study of the economic history and condition of England, and whom that study led to the conclusion that, at least in Europe, England is the only country where the inevitable social revolution might be effected entirely by peaceful and legal means. He certainly never forgot to add that he hardly expected the English ruling classes to submit, without a “pro-slavery rebellion,” to this peaceful and legal revolution.


I would also like to add that the above criticism of Obama's presidency can be applied to that of Chaves and other Latin-American populist regimes.

Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet


Gallenger

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:14 pm


Yeah I am usually quick to defend Sam Webb particularly because our Party is so ideologically confused (or should I say fluid) at this time. Sam Webb himself vacillates constantly. This article was a clear affront to our Leninist ideas. I would point out that I wish many of the Latin American socialist states would simply say "we're Communist" but they present themselves as extremely broad coalitions and thus it is essential for them to downplay some of their ideas. Even the CPUSA (if we take Sam Webb quoted above) could not achieve this. Because Chavez (et als) movements play a vanguard role - leading the nation seeking to conquer political power and then modify the state to create a proletarian dictatorship. This above shows clearly that the aim of the CP is only to be that of a pressure group and an organizer that functions only within a larger coalition (which coalesces not around Socialism as in Latin America, but around the Democrats).
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:17 pm


Gallenger
Yeah I am usually quick to defend Sam Webb particularly because our Party is so ideologically confused (or should I say fluid) at this time. Sam Webb himself vacillates constantly. This article was a clear affront to our Leninist ideas. I would point out that I wish many of the Latin American socialist states would simply say "we're Communist" but they present themselves as extremely broad coalitions and thus it is essential for them to downplay some of their ideas. Even the CPUSA (if we take Sam Webb quoted above) could not achieve this. Because Chavez (et als) movements play a vanguard role - leading the nation seeking to conquer political power and then modify the state to create a proletarian dictatorship. This above shows clearly that the aim of the CP is only to be that of a pressure group and an organizer that functions only within a larger coalition (which coalesces not around Socialism as in Latin America, but around the Democrats).


So... in short, you wish more opportunists and reformists would slander communism by associating themselves with it?

Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet


Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:05 pm


More quoting here:
State and Revolution
At the present time, the bourgeoisie and the opprtunists within the working-class movement concur in this "doctoring" of Marxism. They omit, obliterate and distort the revolutionary side of this teaching, its revolutionary soul. They push to the foreground and extol what is or seems acceptable to the bourgeoisie.


So yeah...This is what gallenger's Party does.
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MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism

 
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