Welcome to Gaia! ::

I've been debating if this belongs more in one of the two current threads about religion or it its better off as its own thread, so I just want to apologize if it seems redundant or silly in anyway.

That being said, I am a Christian (liberal, though), and I've noticed that seems to be treated as something to be ashamed of in certain circles. I'm not posting this to whine about how my religion is being mistreated or to try and convert anyone, because in the grand scheme of things we have it really easy and I find it to be the height of rudeness to force my religion on anyone. I'm just highly confused about why religion in general is considered to be such a bad thing in Marxist ideology. From what I've gathered its because it was developed to placate the working class, but that doesn't seem to take in to the fact that several people (myself include) are Socialists or Communists because of our religion. I can only speak for Christianity since that's my faith tradition, but it seems very clear to me that Jesus was advocate of just about everything that is held dear by Marxism.

I'll be the first to admit that the more Fundamentalist forms of Christianity are harmful to everyone involved in them, but when you get to the more liberal forms it would seem like it would be something that would be, not exactly promoted but certainly not treated as if it is some kind of communicable disease. Instead what I'm seeing is that when the Revolution happens religion will be banned.

I'm posting this because I'm hoping that I'm missing something major or have misunderstood, because I can't in good conscious support any political system that would force me to deny my belief in Christ.

Heya.

I posted this quote from Marx in the other thread because it sheds some light on the issue. I will re-post the quote here and focus on another bit of it:


What Marx is saying here is that religion is an expression that the world sucks. Religion serves a number of social rolls to do with that suckyness:

It offers an explanation of the suckyness .
It offers a real-time distraction from the suckyness.
It offers a programme to alleviate and deal with the sucky.

So, if you eliminate the material need for religion, if you make the world less sucky, then less people will turn to religion.

This is the communist understanding. Banning religion isn't only wrong, but stupid, as it creates sympathy. What communists want is to eliminate the social need for it and to leave it up to private citizens to do their own thing if they so choose.

To add something I saw probably more than once on at least one of those NK threads (either here or ED-P):
Targeting religious groups (I use 'targeting' deliberately to be broad and a bit ambiguous xD) is valid when those groups are involved in counter-revolutionary activity. In this case, they're not being targeted for their religion as such, but on another basis.

Edit:
This is interesting and maybe problematic because...
Marxism is not a political system that you can choose from but rather a theory: an analytical tool of history and all human systems/societies. To exempt something like your own religion from this analysis would be inconsistent and impossible.

I understand that the churches in NK are being targeted for what they are doing, not what they believe, and that's not what I was referring to. I was talking about more general terms.

As for my refusing to support something that would force me to deny my faith, I don't see how its problematic. From what I'm gathering I was mistaken and that its less a matter of religion being banned outright as it is that religion won't be supported with the hope that it would eventually die out. I have no problem with that. Also, I'm a liberal Christian and because of that I actually find it helpful to analyze my faith in regards to other things that I've come to learn or believe.

That's something else that has been on my list of things to read through as well, but I've been putting it off so as not to get burned out as I'm working on getting a dual major in Religion and History and have been swamped with papers lately (got to love summer session).

Thomas Jefferson's The Moral Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth should be the only book of Christ, especially in the US... but noooo we just have to have mysticism included.

The liberal forms wish to be escapists within the capitalist system. Instead of controlling the state and Ideological apparatus such as in the Feudal system, they simply sell an invisible/non existent/highly improbable product under capitalism.

In order for the Socialist rev to continue it must have its ideological foot hold placed firm and with that economical IE the planned economy. The ideological foundation of the feudal system and the withering capitalist parasite hinders the growth of Socialism for it does not allow people to work within their abilities nor needs.

Being able to believe in things such as a heaven, reincarnation etc. etc. only allows one especially in Christianity to become lazy and just pray for forgiveness and *Poof* when your dead your in "happy go lucky Rainbow Sunshine place."

The only reason why people have faith and dont kill themselves is because most faiths being social/culture apparatus dont allow them too do so or they will be "Punished" by "Lesser caste, Eternal damnation, etc etc"

Seriously, if you could be in your mystical dream world, why wouldnt you just kill yourself?

Good friend of mine is actually this kind of communist.

But the principle remains. Religions give subjective answers to objective problems. Religious organizations do what they think will help the working class and slum workers but like most similar programs they attack the recoils of capitalism rather than striking it at its roots. I can see Tanks point. While I do not feel it is necessary or wise to outright abolish it, I also feel promoting it would be counter productive in the working class movement. It is actually one of our tasks to show people that religion isn't the answer and that their only "salvation" lies in breaking the oppression of capital over labour.

Why even talk about the founding fathers? Yes, you did mention the Jefferson Bible, but why even mention them in a point? I don't see a connection, unless you are saying that when they founded this country that they should have outright banned the regular bible and worked towards the Jeffersonian bible. Which would have not flied back then, especially since they went ahead with the separation of Church and State.

And to respond to your second point, I was responding to the "If Heaven is where we should go, why even bother with this life?" question. I was throwing out a suggestion as to why even bothering. When dealing with hypothetics, we cannot escape some human view. Objectivism my a**; Nothing is truly outside itself. Basing our knowledge solely on past and previous experiences assumes that nothing changes, nothing is outside of the rules of what we know.

And Rob, I understand that the principle remains. And I am not about conversion of individuals or the creation and maitenance of religious organizations. Large structures end up ******** up largely and end up about control, which is highly correct that in a sense that religion is a tool. But not all religious people are tools to religion. I don't think we are arguing on the same level.

EDIT: FYI, I don't subscribe to Marxist thought, I just have some things to say pertaining to the reason why liberal religious thought isn't bad. I wasn't arguing against it being abolished in the higher phase of communism or being persecuted because often it would seem that communism had not progressed that far in a country yet.