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mazuac
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:34 pm


It seems there has been some recent... arguments on what the Trinity is, how it could be, etc. I've went around and looked up information so... I hope this will make the Trinity more clear to everyone!

------------

What is the Trinity?

"The Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three eternal, simultaneous, and distinct persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Such a definition may suffice for some, but for others this explanation is insufficient."

On an interesting note, in Romans 1:21 it states "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made." This seems to indicate that we are able to view God in His creations.

Examples/Analogies would be...

Time (is made up of...) Past, Present, Future.
Space (is made up of...) Height, Width, Depth.
Matter (is made up of...) Liquid, Solid, Gas.

God (is...) Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I thought that was interesting to share. :]

On too the individuals of the trinity!

Jesus, the second in the Trinity is the Son. He is Divine and Human, this is called Hypostatic Union.

The Holy Spirit, the third in the Trinity, is divine in nature and self-aware.

Then, the first, the Father.

All three are co-eternal, co-powerful, and co-equal.


Quote:
A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit as a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).
- Source.

They are three persons in one essence. Person(s) isn't the best word to use... But a person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

---

The first step to understand the Trinity is to establish that there is one God...

Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9 (for examples).

* "I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 45:5).
* “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).
* "I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 55:5).

The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the entirety of the Bible, and not a single verse here or there...
---------
Interesting Side-Notes...




Quote:
Is there subordination in the Trinity?

There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:3 cool . Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different than the one who sent him.

Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.


Quote:
Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have done, however, is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.


Quote:
An Analogy of the Trinity

To continue with the observation about the Trinitarian nature of creation, I would like to use 'time' to illustrate the Trinity. Is the "past" plus the "present" plus the "future" a total of three times? Not at all. It simply is a representation of three distinct aspects of the nature of time: past, present, and future. Likewise, the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are not three separate beings or entities, but three distinct persons in the one nature of the Godhead.

One more comment about Jesus. All cults deny that Jesus is God, the creator of the universe, in flesh. Various objections are raised saying that Jesus could not be God, otherwise, He would be praying to Himself, etc. Let's work with the analogy above, and continue with 'time' as our illustration.

Let's take 'present' and add to it human nature. Present, then, would have two natures: time and man. If 'present' were truly human then he would be able to communicate with us, tell us much, and we could see and touch him. But, because he is also 'time' by nature, he would be able to tell us both the past and the future as he manifested the 'time' nature within him. If 'present' then, communicated with the past and the future, it would not mean he was communicating with himself, but with the distinctions known as the past and the future.

I know that this is only an analogy. But I think it is a good, though basic, illustration of God's nature as expressed in Trinitarian expression.



Sources/More Information...

www.CARM.com (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry)

The Trinity (Very good chart showing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit doctrines!)

What Is The Trinity?

Another Look At The Trinity

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:37 pm


I hope this answers confusions and... what not! :]

mazuac
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Someoneiknow

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:37 pm


Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:40 pm


I wouldn't consider it mocking at all.

However. Please explain how there can be 1 God in three separate, different essenced beings...?

As the Christian trinity is based on there being 1 essence (God) with three persons in the essence, yet they are distinct.

There is a difference between distinct and separate.

mazuac
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Someoneiknow

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:44 pm


mazuac
I wouldn't consider it mocking at all.

However. Please explain how there can be 1 God in three separate, different essenced beings...?

As the Christian trinity is based on there being 1 essence (God) with three persons in the essence, yet they are distinct.

There is a difference between distinct and separate.


We look at it as a system of government if you will. God the Father, at the Head, while Christ is below Him, "For He came to do the Father's will, not His own". The Holy Ghost being a personage of spirit, dwelling within us.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:00 pm


My mother used to be LDS and she told me that they think they believe in the same God as Christians, but they really don't.

Plus, when they say, "The Bible is always right, unless it conflicts with the Book of Mormon" and they follow a false prophet.

Phanari


Isaac742

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:01 pm


Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:03 pm


Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


It's not mocking to state clarifaction on faith.

Phanari


Someoneiknow

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:06 pm


Phanari
My mother used to be LDS and she told me that they think they believe in the same God as Christians, but they really don't.

Plus, when they say, "The Bible is always right, unless it conflicts with the Book of Mormon" and they follow a false prophet.


But really we do, and the Bible is an authority just on par with the Book of Mormon.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:07 pm


Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


But you did not prove that they are three Gods, you only proved the stance that they are seperate and distinct.

Someoneiknow


Isaac742

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:10 pm


Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


But you did not prove that they are three Gods, you only proved the stance that they are seperate and distinct.

Something can not be seperate and distinct and be part of a single body. The deffinitions are exact opposite.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:13 pm


Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


But you did not prove that they are three Gods, you only proved the stance that they are seperate and distinct.

Something can not be seperate and distinct and be part of a single body. The deffinitions are exact opposite.


Never said They are of a single body, They are united in purpose, idea, and action.

Someoneiknow


Isaac742

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:15 pm


Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


But you did not prove that they are three Gods, you only proved the stance that they are seperate and distinct.

Something can not be seperate and distinct and be part of a single body. The deffinitions are exact opposite.


Never said They are of a single body, They are united in purpose, idea, and action.

Then they are seperate beings and are multiple gods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:16 pm


Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Isaac742
Someoneiknow
Why do so many religious scholars choose to mock the LDS religion?

We do not believe that there are 3 gods, we believe there is one God, three distinct beings.

Really you think that any anti LDS statements are Biased and mocking? I had no IDEA!

And the deffninition of distinct is
Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.
2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.
3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.
Meaning that they are seperate IE multiple gods >.<


But you did not prove that they are three Gods, you only proved the stance that they are seperate and distinct.

Something can not be seperate and distinct and be part of a single body. The deffinitions are exact opposite.


Never said They are of a single body, They are united in purpose, idea, and action.

Then they are seperate beings and are multiple gods!


No, because there is only one God, Heavenly Father.

Someoneiknow


mazuac
Crew

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:18 pm


Someoneiknow
mazuac
I wouldn't consider it mocking at all.

However. Please explain how there can be 1 God in three separate, different essenced beings...?

As the Christian trinity is based on there being 1 essence (God) with three persons in the essence, yet they are distinct.

There is a difference between distinct and separate.


We look at it as a system of government if you will. God the Father, at the Head, while Christ is below Him, "For He came to do the Father's will, not His own". The Holy Ghost being a personage of spirit, dwelling within us.
Indeed. When it says "not his own" it talking of Jesus' human spirit.

Also, the Holy Ghost is God too. It's not a spirit form... As, well, God is spirit.
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