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 Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:34 pm
What does this guild say for/against the use of force in the revolutionary pursuit of the Communist Ideal?
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Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:04 pm
curently dominant is the view that violence will be necessary, or at least it will probably be necessary.
If you are instead asking what are the views of the individual members of the guild, well...
My name username is a mix of Blanqui's and Robespierre's and I am considered to be the 'dogmatic' one here, so it should be way obvious where I stand...
*cackles while greasing guillotine*
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Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:50 pm
They will not simply hand us power. So we must take it from them >:]
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:20 pm
As much of a revolutionary as I am, I feel as though if the proletariat are strong and organized then a non-violent approach could be used.
If not... *pew pew pew* Goes my gun. twisted
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Miza_Radioaktiv Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:38 pm
Sort of like the above, violence is second resort.
Something like mass strikes... but they might be met with violence, in which case violence is justified in retaliation.
Aaah, I realise how vague that sounded.
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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:02 pm
Any violence will probably be defensive, against some sort of counter revolutionary pre-emptive strike, so why not?
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:44 am
I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power?
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:23 am
divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:50 pm
Herobane divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy. I agree. And how else, aside from killing the controllers, can we disarm their power? Both things are constructs of our societies, and are simply states of mind. If people no longer accept them as powerful, then they are no longer powerful. We don't need to kill anyone, we simply need to disarm the mental, psychological control they hold over the people.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:13 pm
Wow. That was obviously well thought and and is quite cerebral. I also agree with a non-violent approach, but something tells me war will come. It may not be from organized governments, but it will come none the less.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:31 pm
divineseraph Herobane divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy. I agree. And how else, aside from killing the controllers, can we disarm their power? Both things are constructs of our societies, and are simply states of mind. If people no longer accept them as powerful, then they are no longer powerful. We don't need to kill anyone, we simply need to disarm the mental, psychological control they hold over the people. Killing them is the easiest and most effective way to remove their control. I admit, however, that I have not thought of any ways that power can actually be wrested from a government. I just know that it needs to happen. @comrade Hotokashi: Yep. It's coming. I'm sure of it, and I'm also sure that us Communists will play an integral part in it.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:16 pm
divineseraph Herobane divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy. I agree. And how else, aside from killing the controllers, can we disarm their power? Both things are constructs of our societies, and are simply states of mind. If people no longer accept them as powerful, then they are no longer powerful. We don't need to kill anyone, we simply need to disarm the mental, psychological control they hold over the people. This is absolute bullshit, and I can't believe anyone even thought about it for a second. Nor is it simply a question of expedience as Herobane suggests These ******** will not give up power. And by power I mean state power: material control of the courts, cops and armies. In a word, the machinery of oppression. So assume for a moment that a revolutioary communist party did get the support of the majority of the population in time for an election and in fact won the election. Do you imagine that they would hand power over and tell their Judiciary, Policeforce and Military to accept the new government and play along? I ******** hope you do not. Because, quiet simply, THEY WILL NOT. Look at Spain for me. There is an example. Massive popular support for communism and ararchism as the population understood it and what did the bourgeoisie do? THEY RAN TO FRANCO. Russia, 1917: Massive popular support for the Bolsheviks, what does the BOUREOIS government do? Orders the Red Guards be disarmed and the military to leave Petrograd in order to let the Germans have an easy victory. So... Yeah. Stop with the pacifist s**t, ok? It is a case of 'they will kill us if we do not strike first.'
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:33 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre divineseraph Herobane divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy. I agree. And how else, aside from killing the controllers, can we disarm their power? Both things are constructs of our societies, and are simply states of mind. If people no longer accept them as powerful, then they are no longer powerful. We don't need to kill anyone, we simply need to disarm the mental, psychological control they hold over the people. This is absolute bullshit, and I can't believe anyone even thought about it for a second. Nor is it simply a question of expedience as Herobane suggests These ******** will not give up power. And by power I mean state power: material control of the courts, cops and armies. In a word, the machinery of oppression. So assume for a moment that a revolutioary communist party did get the support of the majority of the population in time for an election and in fact won the election. Do you imagine that they would hand power over and tell their Judiciary, Policeforce and Military to accept the new government and play along? I ******** hope you do not. Because, quiet simply, THEY WILL NOT. Look at Spain for me. There is an example. Massive popular support for communism and ararchism as the population understood it and what did the bourgeoisie do? THEY RAN TO FRANCO. Russia, 1917: Massive popular support for the Bolsheviks, what does the BOUREOIS government do? Orders the Red Guards be disarmed and the military to leave Petrograd in order to let the Germans have an easy victory. So... Yeah. Stop with the pacifist s**t, ok? It is a case of 'they will kill us if we do not strike first.' It WILL work- They do not force oppression, they mask it as freedom. That is how, in America, the capitalist control works. People do it willingly, they opt to be slaves because they are told that it is the right thing to do. And I agree completely, the rich will never willingly just give up control. But they will HAVE no control if we get enough people in agreement with our cause. It will be in the form of ultimate boycott- Nobody will work for them, nobody will earn them money, their resources and legal, economic and political control will wither and become nothing. The working class outnumbers the rich many, many times over. We don't need violence. We just need a good dose of intellect and priority. We need to disregard systems of economics that hold us in our positions and keep the rich in power. It is by OUR choice, by the choice of the workers, to keep the rich in power- We still work for them, and not because they force us to with guns to our heads- They have an enticing economic trap system that many common people fall for. And since it is us, the people, who hold the power, by simply disregarding their capitalist offer, we can take away their power. I am not talking sit-ins for worker power. I propose something much simpler. We have numbers. We have power. All we need to do is stop letting them control us. We don't need guns to ignore cash.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:40 pm
Herobane divineseraph Herobane divineseraph I notice the sentiment "They will not give us their power", but let me ask- what IS their power? I interpret that power as being official control of the government and economy. I agree. And how else, aside from killing the controllers, can we disarm their power? Both things are constructs of our societies, and are simply states of mind. If people no longer accept them as powerful, then they are no longer powerful. We don't need to kill anyone, we simply need to disarm the mental, psychological control they hold over the people. Killing them is the easiest and most effective way to remove their control. I admit, however, that I have not thought of any ways that power can actually be wrested from a government. I just know that it needs to happen. @comrade Hotokashi: Yep. It's coming. I'm sure of it, and I'm also sure that us Communists will play an integral part in it. Their system is integrated to the roots of society- A physical attack will only make them act like a turtle, and retract their limbs, tighten on themselves and become impossible to kill. Look what happened in 9/11- People with a political agenda were reduced to simple hatemongers, and we used it to justify the occupation of unrelated countries. If we attack physically, even someone disgustingly rich, the media will spin us into people who hate freedom, who hate children, and who kill without remorse. The public will be frightened, and our hopes of winning popular opinion will be shot for decades. The people will turn to their maters, and we will be nothing more than terrorists with no goal but chaos. This is the societal turtle we have to deal with- Physical attacks will make it recede and become invulnerable. So how do you kill a turtle, then? Flip it on it's back. Take it's defense, the popular opinion of the people, and turn it upside down. Use the people to our advantage, get them on our side with facts and information about how they are being used by the rich. And when we have the will of the people, the rich have no more power.
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:08 pm
divineseraph It WILL work- They do not force oppression, they mask it as freedom. That is how, in America, the capitalist control works. People do it willingly, they opt to be slaves because they are told that it is the right thing to do. And I agree completely, the rich will never willingly just give up control. But they will HAVE no control if we get enough people in agreement with our cause. It will be in the form of ultimate boycott- Nobody will work for them, nobody will earn them money, their resources and legal, economic and political control will wither and become nothing. The working class outnumbers the rich many, many times over. We don't need violence. We just need a good dose of intellect and priority. We need to disregard systems of economics that hold us in our positions and keep the rich in power. It is by OUR choice, by the choice of the workers, to keep the rich in power- We still work for them, and not because they force us to with guns to our heads- They have an enticing economic trap system that many common people fall for. And since it is us, the people, who hold the power, by simply disregarding their capitalist offer, we can take away their power. I am not talking sit-ins for worker power. I propose something much simpler. We have numbers. We have power. All we need to do is stop letting them control us. We don't need guns to ignore cash. Let us go through this slowly: Quote: It WILL work- They do not force oppression, they mask it as freedom. Wrong. The two are not only not exclusive, but go hand in hand. Quote: That is how, in America, the capitalist control works. People do it willingly, they opt to be slaves because they are told that it is the right thing to do. People do it willingly because they see no other choice. Communism is dead, remember? The bourgeoisie and the reformists have been blaring that at the top of their lungs. The working class is not attracted to communism, not because they are good little slaves, but because they see it as dead. Quote: And I agree completely, the rich will never willingly just give up control. Not the 'rich.' This isn't a conflict between 'rich' and 'poor' but between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. Quote: But they will HAVE no control if we get enough people in agreement with our cause. As long as you don't have the whole population on side, they are gonna have the cops and the army. When they force the issue what are you gonna do? "Don't use violence"? Bullshit. The workers will ignore you and set up a government of their own in spite of your efforts. And so you say "No, we must have the whole population!" This is also bullshit. The police are the front-line institution of defence for the bourgeois state. EVERY DAY they oppress the population for the bourgeoisie. EVERY DAY they enforce capitalist laws and capitalist morality. Do you really think they are gonna come over to you? An deven if we imagined for just a moment that the cops and the army could be convinced to side with those they oppress day after day... What about foreign intervention? When England, France, Germany and Japan decide to restor bourgeois 'order,' when the US bourgeoisie invites Mexico to take some liberties with the southern states... What do you suppose your 'revolution' should do? The rest of it amounts to the old tired formula of 'general strike!' So here's the thing there: you are propagandising away telling the workers to go on strike, or to make the s**t THEY WANT, and to give it to the factories and shops THEY WANT and so on. I'm not gonna deal with that right now... I am drained by Ragnarok and reading reformist posts...
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