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 Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:45 am
Miracles, we'd all know them if we saw them... The whole sky lighting up, Angels swooping down playing fan-fares, splitting the the seas and whatnot..
My question is, why would God need them?
Now assuming God is real, a full on Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient being who created everything.. The Laws of Physics, The Laws of Nature, Laws Of Evolution, ect.
Why would he need, or even want to make miracles?
My question is, why would God presumably put laws in place, only to break them because we asked it too?
Wouldn't God see it's creation as perfect?.. Think of an Artist, he creates a beautiful masterpiece, places it in a public setting to show it off, and some drunk says "I don't like that bush".. Why would the artist change something he deems as perfect for some random guy?
Furthermore, if an artist painted a masterpiece, and let's say he was tripping balls for the sake of argument, and one of the figures he painted started "talking" to him, asking that he gets painted a certain way.. Why should the artist change his perfect work?
Another question to ask, why would God want or even need to prove his own validity?
When we ask for proof of a God, what are we asking for? Blazing Trumpets and talking flaming bushes?
Let's say one of you questioned my reality, the fact I exist, why would I go out of my way to prove I exist? Sure I could drive all the way to ******** to prove my existence, but what would be the point?
Same with God, what kind of hard-on would he get proving himself?
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:05 am
I think that the Catholics and Christians turn the bible and such into something its not by taking everything and making it 10 times worse. We should all be aware of how not all of the books written in those times were placed in the bible because some elders decided that they were going to lay down the law and such. Also they translate them weird. I grew up in a christian home...but my dad was very different at his approach. He has some of the lost books and is a bit of a "conspiracy theorist." We had our own "church" on sudays. We'd go on a hike to the top of a hill and talk. I have lost my faith throughout the years. I want to gain a better understanding again as I do with a lot of subjects. Maybe he gives us miracles as a reminder. "Hey. do you remember me?" Just a conditioned thought. Also, I'd have to be tripping on Aya or Peyote for one of my pictures to start talking to me. noah's mistranslation
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:18 am
Jacki Kane I think that the Catholics and Christians turn the bible and such into something its not by taking everything and making it 10 times worse. We should all be aware of how not all of the books written in those times were placed in the bible because some elders decided that they were going to lay down the law and such. Also they translate them weird. I grew up in a christian home...but my dad was very different at his approach. He has some of the lost books and is a bit of a "conspiracy theorist." We had our own "church" on sudays. We'd go on a hike to the top of a hill and talk. I have lost my faith throughout the years. I want to gain a better understanding again as I do with a lot of subjects. Maybe he gives us miracles as a reminder. "Hey. do you remember me?" Just a conditioned thought. Also, I'd have to be tripping on Aya or Peyote for one of my pictures to start talking to me. noah's mistranslationI am well aware of the mistranslations in the bible. It's one of my favorite things to throw into a Christian debate. Now it's easy to say that God performs miracles as a reminder, but why would he? I again pose the question, would you change your perfect picture because somebody didn't care for it?
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:09 am
George Kapland The 4th ...would you change your perfect picture because somebody didn't care for it? Perhaps the miracles are not changes at all, but were always present. We all ready see to the miracles of everyday living. Miracles of birth, love, or how faith can move a person to do otherwise thought the impossible. We do not and can not know God as He knows Himself, and what He does within His plans is done for reasons probably quite well beyond our understanding. Perhaps He does use them to remind us of Him, to make a return to wishing to do good in the world and follow his fatherly ways. They may also serve to show us what we ourselves are capable of, depending the type of miracle performed. Of course I could just as well be in the wrong, as I'm only speculating. God does what He does for His own reasons, and I am not one to know them. So we can only observe and guess, I think.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:58 pm
Just Tony George Kapland The 4th ...would you change your perfect picture because somebody didn't care for it? Perhaps the miracles are not changes at all, but were always present. The Universe itself, the laws the govern it? That sort of thing? It's a possibility to be sure. Just Tony We all ready see to the miracles of everyday living. Miracles of birth, love, or how faith can move a person to do otherwise thought the impossible. Agreed/ Just Tony We do not and can not know God as He knows Himself, and what He does within His plans is done for reasons probably quite well beyond our understanding. We only have our understanding to go by, so we must judge him thusly. Just Tony Perhaps He does use them to remind us of Him, to make a return to wishing to do good in the world and follow his fatherly ways. They may also serve to show us what we ourselves are capable of, depending the type of miracle performed. What defines a miracle? Princeton defines it as: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Just Tony Now ordinary things might seem marvellous from an untrained eye, but a physicist, biologist, [X]ist, would be able to explain why, with the latest in scientific theories. Just Tony Of course I could just as well be in the wrong, as I'm only speculating. God does what He does for His own reasons, and I am not one to know them. So we can only observe and guess, I think. That's what we're doing, debating to think, to know.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:00 pm
Hm... Miracles in that sense... You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure how to debate something I don't necessarily understand. Miracles are what they are. I still get amazed at the thought of the supernatural period, and people speaking of hauntings, ghosts, etc. It intrigues me to no end, but the even slightest feeling that I'm around a "ghost" and I get bothered a bit. Or used to. I sometimes feel all right when wearing a cross. It makes me feel calmer for some reason. Guess that's a miracle of faith, haha. But man, I tell you, I can't even play games like Silent Hill or Fatal Frame without getting spooked. Some horror movies get to me too, like The Grudge. Heh, but I'm one of the biggest fans of horror you may yet find.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:28 pm
Just Tony Hm... Miracles in that sense... You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure how to debate something I don't necessarily understand. Miracles are what they are. I still get amazed at the thought of the supernatural period, and people speaking of hauntings, ghosts, etc. It intrigues me to no end, but the even slightest feeling that I'm around a "ghost" and I get bothered a bit. Or used to. I sometimes feel all right when wearing a cross. It makes me feel calmer for some reason. Guess that's a miracle of faith, haha. But man, I tell you, I can't even play games like Silent Hill or Fatal Frame without getting spooked. Some horror movies get to me too, like The Grudge. Heh, but I'm one of the biggest fans of horror you may yet find. I'll agree with all that. Silent Hill, Fatal Frame scare the crap out of me.. But horror movies don't frighten me much.. I guess it's because there's no punishment concept. If I mess up in Silent Hill, My character is dead, and I get into a game I try to put my mind into the character and do things as a real person would in that situation.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:15 pm
George Kapland The 4th Just Tony Hm... Miracles in that sense... You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure how to debate something I don't necessarily understand. Miracles are what they are. I still get amazed at the thought of the supernatural period, and people speaking of hauntings, ghosts, etc. It intrigues me to no end, but the even slightest feeling that I'm around a "ghost" and I get bothered a bit. Or used to. I sometimes feel all right when wearing a cross. It makes me feel calmer for some reason. Guess that's a miracle of faith, haha. But man, I tell you, I can't even play games like Silent Hill or Fatal Frame without getting spooked. Some horror movies get to me too, like The Grudge. Heh, but I'm one of the biggest fans of horror you may yet find. I'll agree with all that. Silent Hill, Fatal Frame scare the crap out of me.. But horror movies don't frighten me much.. I guess it's because there's no punishment concept. If I mess up in Silent Hill, My character is dead, and I get into a game I try to put my mind into the character and do things as a real person would in that situation. Oh s**t son, someone who understands me! Haha. Resident Evil games are pie, because I have loads of weapons to blast away enemies. But boss fights are sometimes a bit eerie, and RE4 got to me a bit with them being able to use ladders and bust through windoes onto rooftops. That was some straight bollocks! To stay on topic... The miracles of the supernatural. Spirits, hauntings, possessions, the idea of demons, etc. Discuss and debate?
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:35 pm
Just Tony George Kapland The 4th Just Tony Hm... Miracles in that sense... You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure how to debate something I don't necessarily understand. Miracles are what they are. I still get amazed at the thought of the supernatural period, and people speaking of hauntings, ghosts, etc. It intrigues me to no end, but the even slightest feeling that I'm around a "ghost" and I get bothered a bit. Or used to. I sometimes feel all right when wearing a cross. It makes me feel calmer for some reason. Guess that's a miracle of faith, haha. But man, I tell you, I can't even play games like Silent Hill or Fatal Frame without getting spooked. Some horror movies get to me too, like The Grudge. Heh, but I'm one of the biggest fans of horror you may yet find. I'll agree with all that. Silent Hill, Fatal Frame scare the crap out of me.. But horror movies don't frighten me much.. I guess it's because there's no punishment concept. If I mess up in Silent Hill, My character is dead, and I get into a game I try to put my mind into the character and do things as a real person would in that situation. Oh s**t son, someone who understands me! Haha. Resident Evil games are pie, because I have loads of weapons to blast away enemies. But boss fights are sometimes a bit eerie, and RE4 got to me a bit with them being able to use ladders and bust through windoes onto rooftops. That was some straight bollocks! To stay on topic... The miracles of the supernatural. Spirits, hauntings, possessions, the idea of demons, etc. Discuss and debate? I digress alot. On topic, the supernatural can fall under miracles, so I guess you've got me in a catch 22
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:18 am
George Kapland The 4th On topic, the supernatural can fall under miracles, so I guess you've got me in a catch 22 It wasn't due to extreme debate skills. It was an honest accident, haha. But since we're here, well... Haha. Do we just agree they are miracles by whatever source they exist and arrive that they do in fact exist? Though skeptics would suggest no such thing as ghosts exist. That leads us to wonder if in fact their closed minds don't stop them from seeing such things. Anywho, we should let this go somewhere.
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:49 am
Just Tony George Kapland The 4th ...would you change your perfect picture because somebody didn't care for it? Perhaps the miracles are not changes at all, but were always present. We all ready see to the miracles of everyday living. Miracles of birth, love, or how faith can move a person to do otherwise thought the impossible. We do not and can not know God as He knows Himself, and what He does within His plans is done for reasons probably quite well beyond our understanding. Perhaps He does use them to remind us of Him, to make a return to wishing to do good in the world and follow his fatherly ways. They may also serve to show us what we ourselves are capable of, depending the type of miracle performed. Of course I could just as well be in the wrong, as I'm only speculating. God does what He does for His own reasons, and I am not one to know them. So we can only observe and guess, I think. All of those have scientific reasons behind them. Love has nothing to do with spirituality, it's a discharge of an opium-like substance in a person's brain. It's basically a natural, built-in drug to ensure that we breed. And the power of faith has nothing to do with the supernatural, it's just that the power of conviction can cause the body to go beyond our built-in limits. We only use a tiny amount of our musculature, but in times of need, the brain lets go of those inhibitions and allows us to react with greater speed, strength, and tolerance to pain. It also hurts our body, although we heal. Zen Buddhists can do amazing physical feats, but this isn't due to faith, but rigorous training and conditioning from a young age.
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:57 pm
Kino D Just Tony George Kapland The 4th ...would you change your perfect picture because somebody didn't care for it? Perhaps the miracles are not changes at all, but were always present. We all ready see to the miracles of everyday living. Miracles of birth, love, or how faith can move a person to do otherwise thought the impossible. We do not and can not know God as He knows Himself, and what He does within His plans is done for reasons probably quite well beyond our understanding. Perhaps He does use them to remind us of Him, to make a return to wishing to do good in the world and follow his fatherly ways. They may also serve to show us what we ourselves are capable of, depending the type of miracle performed. Of course I could just as well be in the wrong, as I'm only speculating. God does what He does for His own reasons, and I am not one to know them. So we can only observe and guess, I think. All of those have scientific reasons behind them. Love has nothing to do with spirituality, it's a discharge of an opium-like substance in a person's brain. It's basically a natural, built-in drug to ensure that we breed. And the power of faith has nothing to do with the supernatural, it's just that the power of conviction can cause the body to go beyond our built-in limits. We only use a tiny amount of our musculature, but in times of need, the brain lets go of those inhibitions and allows us to react with greater speed, strength, and tolerance to pain. It also hurts our body, although we heal. Zen Buddhists can do amazing physical feats, but this isn't due to faith, but rigorous training and conditioning from a young age. It was meant as more believable, not so common happenings. More in lieu of Mother Teresa's works, even though I hear she was a bit of a crook herself, staying in fancy hotels and the such even while out "helping" the poor and needy. I wasn't there, I can't validate these claims, not that I can say she was an honest saint either. We may differ here, but I still believe faith can do other things along the lines of your description. I'd personally enjoy researching more into exorcisms, and if in fact they have no reality to them. Maybe they do, maybe they do not. *shrugs*
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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:12 am
Remember Exodus! God chose the Jews as his people and He wanted them to do Exactly what he said. The punishments were miraculous, and rather specific.
Otherwise
Would you like your child or pet to forget who you were? Prayer is talking to God, if he didn't give a s**t he wouldn't encourage prayer. A large number of people who are of Cristian decent have a major problem believing in God.
When none of them believe who will pray?
Also if you were the only intelligence in the universe wouldn't you like billions of people to talk to? I don't think angels count, they do what they are told.
Ahem, and one angel desired to have his own way(merely desired) and God said unto the angel "you are evil" and lo! The angel was evil! They do exactly as they are told.
God told Man be good to Man, ect. Man ignored God. God punished man and told him to be good, man said he would be good and then disobeyed again! God changed the world so that man would receive forgiveness if he just had faith.
Man didn't give a flying ********.
God said to Man: "What the hell?"
Man asked Man:"Did you hear something?"
God said : stressed ................ mad
Man said to Man: No, it's just your imagination.
Apparently, disobedient children are more interesting than spiritual robots with wings.
Note: I am speculating, I wasn't there(as far as I can recall) and I am also trying to use humor to get my theory across.
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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:41 am
Zebulous Remember Exodus! God chose the Jews as his people and He wanted them to do Exactly what he said. The punishments were miraculous, and rather specific. Otherwise Would you like your child or pet to forget who you were? Prayer is talking to God, if he didn't give a s**t he wouldn't encourage prayer. A large number of people who are of Cristian decent have a major problem believing in God. When none of them believe who will pray? Also if you were the only intelligence in the universe wouldn't you like billions of people to talk to? I don't think angels count, they do what they are told. Ahem, and one angel desired to have his own way(merely desired) and God said unto the angel "you are evil" and lo! The angel was evil! They do exactly as they are told. God told Man be good to Man, ect. Man ignored God. God punished man and told him to be good, man said he would be good and then disobeyed again! God changed the world so that man would receive forgiveness if he just had faith. Man didn't give a flying ********. God said to Man: "What the hell?" Man asked Man:"Did you hear something?" God said : stressed ................ mad Man said to Man: No, it's just your imagination. Apparently, disobedient children are more interesting than spiritual robots with wings. Note: I am speculating, I wasn't there(as far as I can recall) and I am also trying to use humor to get my theory across. I like the humor in your post. I like it when we can laugh at ourselves, and that goes for anyone on anything, but I sort of get a kick out of religious humour. Sinfest is funny to me. As far as the fall is concerned, one third of the angels fell. I think that host willingly followed Lucifer, or so it's generally thought. It could be a little sketchy on the details. But hey, that's how it goes I suppose. Man, I had something to add to your post's humour when I originally hit the reply button. Then the thought faded away. Oh well.
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