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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:49 am
First off, I have never had an abortion and never will. I've gone to great lengths not to be involved in pregnancy in any way. I am not capable of reproducing any longer.
In a perfect world, no one would. In a perfect world everyone would have contraception and sufficient education to use it. In a perfect world, self esteem would be too strong to let people be pressured into doing unsafe things. In a perfect world, condoms would never break or fall off in situ. In a perfect world everyone would be clean and sober during sex. In a perfect world there would be no rape or incest. In a perfect world couples would negotiate reproductive decisions calmly before it gets to the serious stage.
Guess what? We live in the real world. In the real world, the choice can be abort or be homeless. In the real world sometimes that child is so damaged it will live a short, horrible life. In the real world sometimes you hate the father or the circumstances of it's conception so much you would risk your life to get rid of it.
In the real world, the choice tends to be legal abortion, black market abortion, or infanticide. That's what happens, you see. Historically, city trash heaps where full of dead babies. Now, in poor countries with abortion and contraceptives outlawed, parents starve the extra children. In the real world, teenagers get kicked out for coming home pregnant.
I live in the real world. I have had friends who had to make this decision. They didn't make it lightly. Frankly? If you are capable of making this decision easily, you probably shouldn't have children. I am glad it's a decision I will never have to make for myself. I also lack the arrogance to think I should be making this decision for other people.
Why I'm against requiring partner permission:
I am imagining what that'll be like for all those women in a relationship where talking it over is an ugly option. Yes, in an ideal relationship, they'd talk it over anyway. Hands up for those of you who believe a majority of these will be ideal relationships. Anyone? Anyone? So imagine someone who just got out of something turning a little ugly and finds she's pregnant. Now she's got to go back and beg him for the right to get rid of it. Even if he was controlling or verbally abusive or he hit her. Nice. Statistically? Most pregnant teens have a boyfriend older than twenty. Imagine the already skewed power relationship there with this new lever to hold over her. what if her parents will kick her out if she turns up pregnant? This has "Recipe for Disaster" written right over it.
Yes, it's not ideal that the guy doesn't get a say, but you know what? Not his body. Sorry. Yes, it sucks that if she keeps it, he'll be having to help support it whether he wants to or not, but that still is not as horrible as forcing her to bear it and raise it and support it against her will. The risks, medical and social are all on her side while the financial ones are split, likely not evenly. There is no way he should get final say here. Sorry. No dice.
We live in the real world. Legislation must reflect that.
I choose quality of life over quantity. For a living I had to deal with the messes adults made of the lives of children they weren't prepared to raise. Ever spend all day in a room full of kids with serious damage do to parental drug and alcohol abuse trying to teach? I have. Then I got up the next morning and did it again. I've seen the mess abuse and neglect leave behind. It's not that I didn't love or care about those kids, but realistically, most of them are going to have seriously sucky lives. The statistics for generational drug and alcohol abuse are chilling as are the crime figures. The brain damage typical of FAE/FAS pretty much sets the kids up for early pregnancy/jail/addiction because it takes away the ability to understand consequences, cause and effect, and amps impulsiveness. no, not all of them end up living horrible lives, but odds are in favor that most of those kids will have trouble holding jobs and make terrible choices because of the damage. These are incredibly labour intensive children for foster care and schools and they are the ones with the least chance of succeeding in life. All that heartache, all that love, and labour and class time spent dealing with these issues, all the counselors and social workers and instructional aides could be invested instead in helping ordinary students or children who's problems are accidental and generally more remediable. Generational FAE creates a permanent underclass.
I genuinely think we'd all be a lot better off living in a society where every single child comes into the world wanted and loved with a decent chance of living a decent life. I think birth control is a huge part of that, but accidents happen. They happen more often to the young, the drunk or high, the most impulsive.
I value the quality of life for people already here over that of potential people. Yes, its harsh, but over population is causing major environmental damage. If depopulation ever becomes a major issue again, I'll rethink, but population has been rising steadily since 1400 and I think its more logical to try to improve conditions for people already alive now.
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:07 am
*slow clap*
Pure win, dude.
You pretty much said everything there was to be said. Only thing I can add is something about Child Support, which is kinda off topic.
I'm of the idea that if a guy doesn't want to pay, then he doesn't have to, but he loses all right to see the child.
Also, the fundie abortion clinic protesters who get abortions and scream that the doctors performing the abortions are murderers make me LOL.
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:21 pm
Lexenos *slow clap*
Pure win, dude.
You pretty much said everything there was to be said. Only thing I can add is something about Child Support, which is kinda off topic.
I'm of the idea that if a guy doesn't want to pay, then he doesn't have to, but he loses all right to see the child.
Also, the fundie abortion clinic protesters who get abortions and scream that the doctors performing the abortions are murderers make me LOL. I have a whole page of those somewhere.
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:02 am
I agree with pretty much everything Nec had to say on the matter. In an ideal world, pregnancy termination would be absolutely legal, perfectly accessible, utterly free...and one hundred percent unnecessary. But we live in the real world, and you're right, we need to deal with the issue realistically.
My sister has had two abortions in her lifetime. The first was when she was a teen, dating an abusive alcoholic who periodically raped her and didn't feel the need to use any sort of protection. It was still an agonizing decision. The second was much later in her life when she made a terrible mistake. That was an even more agonizing decision, and I watched her go through it. It was a time when she really, really wanted a child, and she really wanted the father to be...well, the father. But it wasn't possible, and the decision to terminate broke her heart. I drove her to and from the clinic, and all I can say is, it's not only agonizing to make the decision, it's not painless to have the procedure. Certainly better (and safer) than any black market method, but it's not something anyone would lightly choose to put themselves through.
Having seen firsthand how it affected her, emotionally and physically, makes me really, really want to strangle the right wing yahoos who claim women actually choose abortion as a method of birth control (that is, they deliberately don't use any other method of birth control because having an abortion is just "so easy"). What utter rubbish. No woman in anything approaching her right mind would think that way. That's like saying a person would "just not bother" eating, because being fed through an IV tube would be "so easy." Actually, it's worse, but I can't think of a better analogy.
My opinion on parental or partner consent is also pretty much in line with yours, Nec. Yes, it would be ideal if the father could voice his opinion and help the mother make the decision. Yes, if the mother is underage, it would be ideal for her parents to voice their opinions and help her make the decision. But very few situations are ideal. In the end, only the pregnant woman should have the final say. She shouldn't need to get anyone's permission to decide what happens to her own body. Ever.
As far as child support...Bleh. Yeah, men get a raw deal sometimes. My father probably believes he did (though in my opinion, he only got what he deserved). But step back and look at every other way in which women get the short end of the stick. Even in the 21st century, men still have major advantages over women. Having to pay child support, even if the father gets only minimal (or even no) visitation rights, is a drop in the bucket. Take a few minutes to write a child support check once a month, then go back to running every other aspect of the world. Sheesh.
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