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Ahmadhi's, contrary to what others are taught, do beleive in the Khataman Nabiyyeen.

The principal charge leveled against the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, is that (God save us), he repudiated the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, being the Khataman Nabiyyeen.

This is an utterly false charge. The Promised Messiah, peace be on him, has repeatedly affirmed in his writings that he believes that every word and vowel point of the Holy Quran is from God and that this is part of his faith. He was the first person in Islam who proclaimed that not one word of the Holy Quran is abrogated. He challenged those who believe that a certain number of verses of the Holy Quran have been abrogated, to come forth in opposition to his declaration and that he would establish that not a single word of the Holy Quran has been abrogated. To say concerning such a person that (God save us) he repudiated a whole verse of the Holy Quran (33:41) is a monstrosity.

He has stated:

I call Allah, the Glorious, to witness that I am not a disbeliever. My doctrine is that there is no one worthy of worship save Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah . I believe concerning him that he was the Messenger of Allah and the Khataman Nabiyyeen. I affirm the truth of this statement with as many oaths as are the Holy names of Allah and as are the letters of the Holy Quran and as is the number of the excellencies of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. No belief of mine is contrary to the commands of Allah and His Messenger. He who imagines anything contrary to this labors under a mis-conception. (Karamatus Sadiqeen, p.25)

Again he has stated:

The person who was above all, and was a perfect man, and a perfect prophet, and who came with the fullness of blessings, through whom, on account of his spiritual advent and the spiritual resurrection that he brought about, the first judgment manifested itself and a whole universe that was dead was revived, that blessed prophet Khatamul Anbiya, Leader of the elect, Katamul Mursileen, Pride of the Prophets was Muhammad Mustafa, peace and the blessings of Allah by upon him. (Itmamul Hujjah, p.2 cool

He claimed:

Allah is Glorious, Allah is Glorious; what a high station was that of the Khatamul Anbiya, the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Glory be to Allah, what high degree of light was his. (Braheen Ahmadiyya, p.246)

My belief that I hold in this life and with which, by the grace of Allah, I shall pass on from this world is that our lord and master, Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was Khataman Nabiyyeen and the best of Messengers. (Izala Auham, part I, p.137)

He declared:

I believe in the Khatam-i-Nabuwat of the Khatamul Anbjya, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and consider one who denies the Khatam-i-Nabuwat as faithless and outside the pale of Islam. (Taqreer Wajabul llan, 1891)

He has stated:

My belief is that our Holy Prophet is better and more exalted than all the Messengers and is Khataman Nabiyyeen. (Ayenah Kamalat Islam, p.327)

He has declared:

I believe that our Holy Prophet, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is more exalted than all the Messengers and is the Khatamul Anbiya. (Hamamatul Bushra, p. cool

He has affirmed:

I believe truly and perfectly in the verse which says: 'But he was the Messenger of Allah and Khataman Nabiyyeen'. (Ek Ghati Ka Izala)

All this makes it clear beyond doubt that the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, had perfect faith in the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, being the Khataman Nabiyyeen, and that he considered anyone who repudiated this as being outside the pale of Islam. It is, therefore, the height of injustice to allege that he denied the Khatam-i-Nabuwat of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

It is true, however, that the Ahmadiyya Community differs with some of the Muslim divines in the true meaning and interpretation of the relevant verse (33:41). The Ahmadis have firm faith in the verse itself and a difference of view regarding its meaning and interpretation does not import disbelief. In the history of Islam great Imams and divines have differed with each other in the matter of interpretation on several questions. Despite those differences they were all considered Muslims and are worthy of honor by all Muslims. Such Imams and high authorities have interpreted this particular verse (33:41) exactly as the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement has interpreted it. Will they all, God forbid, be held to be non-Muslims? It would be obviously unjust that if X interprets a verse in one way he should be held to be a Muslim but if Y interprets it in the same way, he should be held to be a disbeliever. We set out, by way of illustration, the interpretations of this verse (33:41) by some of the outstanding divines.

Hazrat Mulla Ali Qari (mercy of Allah be upon him), who died in 1014 A.H. and was a great research scholar and a master of Hanafi jurisprudence and was a great Imam, has stated in his book Mauzuat Kabir, with reference to the saying of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him:

Had Ibrahim (the Holy Prophet's infant son) survived, he would have been a true prophet, that if Ibrahim had survived and had become a prophet he would still have been a follower of the Holy Prophet; and he has interpreted the verse (33:41) as meaning that there would be no prophet after the Holy Prophet who would abrogate his law and who would not be one of his followers.

In the same way, Hazrat Shah Waliullah, Muhaddas of Delhi (mercy of Allah be upon him), who has been acclaimed as the Reformer of the 12th century of Islam, has stated in his book Tafheemat IIahiyyah:

The prophets came to an end with the Holy Prophet, meaning that there can be no divinely inspired reformer after him who would be commissioned by Allah, the Glorious, with a new law.

Thus there can be a difference in the interpretation of the verse, but so far as faith in the verse is concerned it is not open to any doubt that the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, had full faith in it.

The verse is as follows:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your man, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets. Allah has full knowledge of all things. (33:41)

Our opponents say that the expression Khataman Nabiyyeen, which has been employed in this verse, relating to the Holy Prophet, means that by his advent prophethood has been closed and that he was the last prophet in every sense. This interpretation is not correct. The word Khatam means seal and thus the expression Khataman Nabiyyeen means the Seal of the Prophets. The verse states that Muhammad is not the father of any man but is the Messenger of Allah and is the Seal of the Prophets. The question, therefore, is what is the true meaning of the expression 'Seal of the Prophets' in this context? Our opponents contend that the phrase Khataman Nabiyyeen does mean the Seal of the Prophets but that its interpretation is that the Holy Prophet was the last prophet, for the purpose of a seal is to close a document.

It is well known, however, that the purpose of a seal is not to close a statement but to certify it as correct. That is why often a seal is affixed to a document at its top and in other cases it is affixed at its bottom or at its end. Its purpose is to certify the genuiness and correctness of the contents of the document. It is well known that after the truce of Hudaybiyyah, when the Holy Prophet decided to address letters to the rulers and chiefs of surrounding territories inviting them to the acceptance of Islam, he was told that rulers and chiefs do not attach any significance to a communication addressed to them unless it bears the seal of the writer. Thereupon the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, had a seal prepared which was thereafter used for the attestation and certification of documents (Bokhari and Muslim).

The purpose of a seal being attestation and certification, the interpretation of the verse in question would be that though the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, had no male issue, yet being the Messenger of Allah he is the spiritual progenitor of his followers. He is, therefore, not without issue but has a large progeny. It is added that he is not merely a Divine Messenger but is also the Seal of the Prophets, that is to say, he is not only the progenitor of the generality of the believers but is the spiritual progenitor of the prophets and messengers also and thus he occupies the exalted position which imports that no prophet or messenger can now appear unless he bears with him the confirmatory seal of the Holy Prophet. This means that the Holy Prophet is not only the spiritual progenitor of the generality of believers but is also the spiritual progenitor of prophets and messengers.

If this verse is construed as meaning that the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was absolutely the last prophet, the verse becomes meaningless. In that case its meaning would be: 'Muhammad had no son but he is the last prophet.' In Arabic idiom the word 'but' which has been used here is employed for the purpose of introducing an explanation in modification of what has gone before, or for the purpose of clearing a doubt which the previous statement might raise. The use of the word 'but' in this verse entails that it should be followed by a statement which modifies or clarifies that which has gone before. In view of this the interpretation put forward by our opponents makes the verse meaningless, for it would then amount to a statement that though the Holy Prophet has no issue, no prophet will come after him. This would constitute no praise of the Holy Prophet.

The interpretation of the verse adopted by the Ahmadiyya Community is in exact accord with that attributed to it by great Imams and the elect in the past. For instance, Hazrat Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) is reported as having said:

Say he was Khataman Nabiyyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him. (Durre Manshur, Vol. V of Jalaludin Suyuti)

Hazrat Mohyuddin ibn Arabi has stated in his book, Futuhat Makkiyyah:

Prophethood will continue among men till the Judgment Day, though a new law is barred. Law is a part of prophethood.

Hazrat Imam Muhammad Tahir has stated in his book, Majmaul Bihar:

The saying of Hazrat Ayesha that Muslims should call the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, Khataman Nabiyyeen, but should not say that there would be no prophet after him, had reference to the advent of the Promised Messiah. The direction given by Hazrat Ayesha is not in contradiction with the hadees: 'There will be no prophet after me'; for the meaning of the Holy Prophet was that there would be no prophet after him who would abrogate his law.

Hazrat Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi (may Allah have mercy on him) Reformer of the second millennium, who is held in great honor, has stated:

The achievement by the followers of the Holy Prophet by way of obedience and inheritance of the excellencies of prophethood after the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is not inconsistent with his being the Khatamar Rusul (Maktubat Ahmadiyya, Vol. I)

Hazrat Shah Waliullah, Muhaddas of Delhi, may Allah have mercy on him, who was a great divine and was the Reformer of the 12th century of Islam, has stated in his book Tafheemat Ilahiyyah that the meaning of prophethood having come to an end with the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is that there will be no one who will be appointed by God Almighty with a new law.

These are only a few out of hundreds of statements made by eminent Muslim divines and righteous people who have interpreted the expression Khataman Nabiyyeen in the same way as the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, has interpreted it. If despite differences in interpretation they were Muslims and were accepted as believers in the Holy Quran, why should the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, be penalized for having the same belief? Such an attitude would be the height of injustice.

There is a serious contradiction involved in the stand taken by the divines who are opposed to the Ahmadiyya Movement. On the one hand they pronounce the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, a disbeliever because in their estimation his claim of prophethood is contradictory of the verse which pronounces the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, as being Khataman Nabjyyeen; and on the other hand they believe that Jesus, son of Mary, who is a Prophet, would come a second time. If the Seal of Prophethood is disrupted by the claim of the Promised Messiah that he is a prophet by reflection, then how is it that it would not be disrupted by the second advent of Jesus who was a Prophet in his own right? The bulk of the Muslims believe that Jesus would descend from heaven in his earthly body and would be a prophet.

For instance, Maulana Maudoodi Sahib has stated:

The second advent of Jesus is a question on which the Muslims are all agreed. This belief is based upon the Holy Quran, hadees, and consensus ... This is a certainty and admits of no doubt that the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, has announced the second advent of Jesus. This is established by irrefutable testimony. If such testimony can be rejected, no historical event of the world can be accepted. (Answer to ten questions on behalf of Jamaat Islami, p.24)

In a hadees of Muslim, the Messiah who was to come has been described as the Prophet of Allah. The stand of the Ahl-i-Hadees sect in this matter is that there is a consensus among the Muslims and it is supported by the ahadees that the Promised Messiah would be a prophet. (Ahl-i-Hadees, 29 November 1966).

Imam Sayuti, Ibn Arabi, and Ibn Hajar have all clearly affirmed that in his second advent, the Messiah would be a prophet. Basing himself on a statement by Imam Sayuti, Nawab Siddique Hasan Khan Sahib wrote:

He who asserts that Hazrat Isa, when he comes down will not be a prophet and would be deprived of his prophethood is certainly a disbeliever as Imam Jalaludin Sayuti has clearly affirmed, inasmuch as Hazrat Isa is a Prophet and a prophet is not deprived of his quality of prophethood either in his lifetime or after his death. (Hujajul Karamah, p.431)

Shaikh Ibn Arabi has said:

There is no difference of opinion on the question that Hazrat Isa is a Prophet and a Messenger and it is agreed that he would appear in the latter days and his prophethood is well established (Futuhat Makkiyyah, Vol.II, p.3)

Shaikh Ibn Hajar wrote:

Hazrat Isa is an honored Prophet. After he comes down he would still be a Prophet and Messenger. An affirmation by a person of no account that he will be only a member of the Muslim community is not correct, inasmuch as he being one of the Muslims and his giving effect to the Islamic law is not inconsistent with his being a Prophet and a Messenger. (Alfatawa Alhadisiyyak, p.129)

Thus, it is the united stand of the Muslims that at the time of his second advent the Messiah will still be clothed with the robe of prophethood and that this would not be inconsistent with the verse which describes the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, as Khataman Nabiyyeen (33:41).

How unjust, therefore, it is that despite the belief that Jesus of Nazareth will descend from heaven in his capacity of the Messiah of Israel and that he will be a Prophet and that this would not disrupt the Seal of Prophethood, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, who claimed to be a follower of the Holy Prophet and a Prophet by way of reflection and declared his purpose to be perfect obedience to the Holy Prophet, should be held to have been outside the pale of Islam on account of this claim.

Here are some instances of the use of the expression Khatam in the connotation of high, eminent, excellent etc. but not meaning the last:

Abu Tayyub was pronounced Khatamus Shuara. (Introduction to the Divan of Mutanabbi p. 5)
Hazrat Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was Khatamul Aulia. (Tafseer Safi, Surah Ahzab)
Hazrat Imam Shafai was Khatamul Aulia. (At Tuhfatus Sunnia, p. 45)
Shaikh Ibn Arabi was Khatamul Aulia. (Title page of Fatuhat Makkiyyah)
Shah Abdul Aziz was Khatamul Muhaddaseen Wal Mufassireen. (Hadyatis Shia, p.7)
Maulvi Anwar Shah Sahib Kashmiri was Khatamul Muhaddaseen. (Raisul Ahrar, p. 99)
Habib Shirazi is considered Khatumushuara in Iran. (Hayate Saadi, p.87)
Imam Suyuti was Khatamul Muhaddaseen. (Hadyatis Shia, p.210)
Hazrat Ali was Khatamul Auwsia. (Minar-ul Huda, p. 106)
Maulvi Muhammad Qasim was Khatamul Muffasireen. (Asrar-e-Qurani, title page).

Likes being treated like a prophet? What is a prophet treated like....do you know?

The followers of the Prophets (in most cases) had so much trust in the Prophet that if he told them to die they would without questioning. But, how were the Prophet treated?

SO MANY of the Prophets were thrown out of their homes just because they believed in Allah and taught His Oneness. They were ridiculed, spat at, tortured, cursed at, had garbage thrown on them and the list goes on and on and on. But, these Prophets remained firm in their faith.

So when you say that a individual (any individual) like being treated like a Prophet, then you are greatly mistaken. No normal individual could stand this abuse. Being treated like a Prophet only means that you have a steadfast group of believers. These believers will also suffer the same fate, if less, then Prophet does. So, since the believers and the Prophet are treated badly.....I don't know where you are getting an image of special treatment from?

If you think the Promised Messiah (as) was not treated this way you are greatly mistaken. Before he claimed to be the Messiah (and a Prophet) he was a revered scholar of Islam. Every Muslim looked up to him to defend Islam against the infidels. (Don't believe me......then search up the "World Religious Conference".....his point of view was Islam.....and his speech was the most loved)

But, once he claimed to be the Messiah (Prophethood) then all these people looked down on him and called him a lier. He used to be on a worldy throne and he was thrown off of it into a ditch....to look for believers. But, he remained steadfast. He took all the jeers and fowl language with patience. He knew that even though he had lost his worldy throne, Allah in the hereafter would give him a more beautiful throne in heaven. He only had a handful of believers at the time.

And another point of being given the status of a prophet, is finding out the painful truth that the rescueing of mankind lies in your hands.....that the suffering of mankind can be stopped by those very hands by spreading the message of peace (Islam). Any person that is given such a huge task cannot be happy if they only want to attain worldly desires because they know they wont. They have to suffer because they know that mankind is suffering.

So when you say that he like being treated like a Prophet you are wrong in the worldly award sense.



Definition of abrogate for your convenience:
"to put aside; put an end to"
Synonyms 1. cancel, revoke, rescind, nullify, void, invalidate.

So.........it means changed.......eg. If you cancel something you have changed it because of your act of cancelling

Can you provide me with the logic of why Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) would abrogate a verse? I mean why did he abrogate the verse?
You can't just say that he abrogated a verse and then expect me to believe it? I need evidence, so please provide it.






I was referring to you quoting the passage that I had provided and then stating that it doesn't make you Muslim if you only repeat the Kalimah. I never said that outside of the passage that you quoted he didn't state the kalimah. If he didn't state the Kalimah then why would he tell his followers to believe in the kalimah and state it? Thats hypocrisy! Therefore it can only be logically concluded that he did state the Kalimah....because his followers do.



Actually sometimes (no offense to you) I listen to the Sunni khutba's and I find them so ridiculous. Or if not ridiculous they don't even come near to comparing with the khutba's (friday sermons) of our khalifa. And when you speak of others.......people in other faiths that have met to a large scale totally don't know about their own religion. What kind of guidance is this?



Again I ask:

How many people have your "religious" friends converted? How many people have your religious friends brought back to the true teaching of Islam?

If they had perfect faith then they would realize that since they have perfect faith they have the duty to go out and preach this most beautiful religion of Allah. They cannot just sit idly and igore this important task. They would realize that the reason Islam was sent to the world was so that the world would live in peace (after accepting Islam) and there would be limited suffering. The only way this is possible is by preaching Islam. Tell the people that yuo know that have "perfect faith" that when they pass away Allah will question them on this aspect as well, and that they should be prepared to give a good answer.



What's a mashab?



And as I have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again we do follow Muhammad (saw).....he is the compass that guides our Jama'at.



I have been debating with you about this in another forum, so I won't address it here.



The Muslims direly need an imam. At this moment...or in the future.....the definetly need one. The Muslims have come to such a state where they fight amongst one another! They care about oil and worldy goods more then they care about heavenly rewards. They have forgotten Allah. I am not speaking of every single individual in all sects. But, I am speaking of the majority, except in my sect. In my sect we have not forgotten Allah, and we have not forgotten the teachings of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). We do not pray and then go home and treat everyone indescently. We spread the message of Islam (of peace)....and our very motto is "Love for All, Hatred for None". Whereas the majority of Muslims pray and then forget Allah in all other parts of their day......my sects people don't. We remember Allah every moment of our day. Some one needs to be here to guide everyone back to the path of Islam.

Without an imam the Muslims are like a body without a head! And obviously as we see in the world this body is very disfunctional.


Actually you are not. Have you forgotten? You believe that Hadhrat Isa (as) is sitting in the heavens and he is you Imam.....the Imam that you are still waiting for.....and will never come.



And in another forum you said I was Muslim as well?
So, since you said that what is wrong with converting from one Muslim sect to the next. True believers can see the truth. So many new converts in my faith say that the only reason they converted is that they saw a pious man in their dreams that they wanted to follow but did not know who he was. Then they heard the message of Amadiyyat, and saw the picture of the Promised Messiah Hadrat Mirza ghulam Ahmed (as) and immediately converted.

You say you will die for Islam? The easiest way to die for the true Islam is to become an Ahmadhi. We are constantly being martyred.

Do you what your flaw in logic is? What the flaw in the entire Muslim sects besides ours is?

THE ONLY FAULT THEY CAN FIND IN OUR SECT IS THAT THE PROMISED MESSIAH (AS) SAID THAT HE WAS A PROPHET.

There is no other fault that you can find. We are small in number. But as an entire community our sacrifices are more (time, wealth, honour, lives and children). Our faith is more. We are more steadfast. We have more knowledge of Islam. We are the ones doing tabligh (preaching) to the corners of the world. We are the ones that are pointed out by innocent people, who say that this is what people should be like. We are the ones who are liked, and in some cases loved by the politicians of all spheres. in most cases. We are the only ones who are trying to change the corrupt image that the MAJORITY of Muslims sects have created into the minds of the innocent. We are the ones who are helping the suffering, poor, etc. of the world. We are the ones who are getting the highest education. We are the ones who love our Khalifa so much that we would do anything for him. We are the ones who are even helping the poor in the Muslim countries. When disaster strikes on any front, even in a country that persecutes us, we are at the forefront of helping that community. We are the most pious people out there. We are the ones who are translating the Qur'an into hundreds of languages and spreading them to all nations of the world. We are the ones who give POLITICIANS gifts of the Qur'an when they attend our programs. We are the ones who have no landmarks or boundaries on earth. The ones who do not care of the skin colour, or the race, or nationality of the person sitting beside him, (but give those people so much respect as we would do our own brother/sister). When I say all these things 'we' means our entire community combined.

So, if that is the only fault you can find in this community. Then you have to wonder......are you wrong or am I wrong?

I'll continue praying for you, as I already have been doing.



No it does not. But, then it also explains he fact that when you say you would die for it, you are actually just making a statement that you cannot back up with actions. If you truly loved Islam, and I mean every single aspect of islam, and were willing to die for Islam and sacrifice all your time in spreading this beautiful faith, even if the whole world turned against you, then you do have perfect faith.



When you speak of "here" I don't know where you are talking about?
And I would like to ask which person in your "here" has been recorded down in history as being a great saint or a person with "great iman". People with "great imans" stick out, and are recorded in history.



How would it do you a great favour? You don't even believe in Ahmadiyyat.



Astaghfurullah. So, basically you are saying that Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) was wierd, and he spread a wierd religion, which will continue to be wierd.

By the way, Islam is not going to end till the Day of Judgement.

You don't sound like a very good believer when you say that.



Well apparently you do. Since apparently we believe in a false message of Islam (eg. the Promised Messiah (as))!



No I won't think its a success until I put thoughts into your head of converting.



Yes I do know this already. You are the one that said: "Because Islam started as something weird, and it is going to end weird."



Yes....and the Promised Messiah (as) is the Promised Messiah (as). He does not defy the Seal of the Prophets........if you read the passages I provided you would notice that even other non-Ahmadhi scholars have interpretated Seal of the prophets in the same manner.



Yes you do. Like I have people so do you. My people are the Ahmadhi's, and yours are the Sunni's (or the people in general who do not believe in the Promised Messiah (as))

I follow what is in the Qur'an an ahadith too. I just have a clearer view of what is said in the Qur'an, and therefore can acurately quote it in whatever argument I provide. Whereas you can't (I have to ask you to provide support).



Yes he said that he is Seal of the Prophets, I am aware of that. But, guess what he also said to Hadhrat Ali (ra) that He is the Seal of the Pious People. I guess according to your definition of "seal" no more pious people can come now!



No, I believe in every word the Holy Prophet (saw) has said. Its just the majority of Muslims that cannot understand his deep knowledge and insight. They get it wrong.



So have I!



You can never know something is false unless testing it yourself. Until you test it yourself, you will always have doubts, even though outwardly you say you don't.

How can you test it?
-Pray to Allah for guidance with a clear and open mind.....every single night. He will show you what is right and what is wrong.
-You can listen to at least one Friday sermon by our khalifa, to at least say we are false and you have an open mind. (click here to watch it: http://www.alislam.org/archives/2008/mp3/FSA20080801-EN.mp3)
-You can go search the refernces I provide on your own to see if they are false



My people don't have clashing faiths......we are all Ahmadhi who have a leader who guides all of us.



But, how can it be haraam, Hadrat Muhammad (saw) did not say that it was haraam. I know it is bad for your healh, but in the middle east smoking is common.

Of course, at the time of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) no one smoked....they had more important things to worry about then getting a cigar.



Because we were argueing about the truth of his claim?



I am not saying it is not a religion, but it is also a law. It is the law of heaven. In the Holy Qur'an non-beleivers have not been exempted from the questioning, even IF their fate has been decided.



My sentence does not need to be corrected. You just changed the words.....but its still the same.

And who is this person?



Yes I know you believe in that version of the story already. And the only thing that blood samples of his mother would prove is that they were related.....nothing else.

How far could we go? We have read the documented research of all secular historians and scientists, who agree that Hadhrat Isa (as) was alive and has died. They have prrof of this too....through "blood samples".

Did you know that every piece of knowledge that I post on this site....including the quotes and arguments from the Qur'an and ahadith are from that site? I guess not. When you say I'm smart and get things right.....I'm not the one that is smart that site is.



No I'm not. You said Isa (as) is to FOLLOW the greatest man in the world.....and I said He is not to FOLLOW......when I say that I mean Hadhrat Isa (as) is not going to come down from the heavens and carry out a bloody massacre.



Oh, you have no reply to this?



Well if you read carefully you would notice that the word "khatum" is used in each of these statements. "khathum" means "seal" (according to you it means "last"). This is put in different statements said by the Holy Prophet (saw) and other Sahaba.



And did you know that the Qur'an and hadith support that the advent of the Promised Messiah was going to be at the end of the 13th century. And all other Muslim sect scholars know this....this is the only reason they changed or teach now that the Promised Messiah will descend before the Day of Judgement. But, I must say it was pretty smart of them to lie like that. Because when the Last Day does come and Hadrat Isa (as) has still not come then they will be long gone (meaning dead already), and no one will care about the lies anymore...they will be more concerned about dying.



What I will say to you is that later when I have time I will give you all the evidence that you need (and oh my God) there is so much evidence, from the Qur'an and hadith showing you that Hadrat Isa (as) has passed away. If you choose to withdraw from this debate that is up to you....but I will still continue praying for you. Just remember that everyone else that reads this will see that you were the one who gave up on the debate, making me the winner.

I am spreading truth.....Ia m just trying to tell you what it will say to others when you leave. I already stated that the only way I will really have won is if you converted.



I know you never said that. But, you must know that the majority of Muslims believe that after Hadhrat Isa (as) descends on earth, with the help of some Imam it is said he will kill all Infidels (people who don't convert that instant). So that's what I mean by bloody massacre.



No Thank you for allowing me to learn more about my own.



Ameen.



I will continue praying for you. Inshallah Allah will guide you on the right path.....whatever path that may be. Seriously, last time I responded to your posts I went and had a long cry..........its sad what some people will do to run away from the truth. It is said in Hadith that when the truth comes don't run away from it, but accept it. When the Messiah comes convert at his hands. Aren't you afraid of the wrath of Allah? Allah is very much alive in this world and will continue to be so for all eternity. He still listens to prayers, and true believers witness prayer fulfillment.



I understand your position from an outer view. I always thank Allah that I was given birth in an Ahmadhi family.........how hard it must be to convert to another faith when you have lived your whole life believing you are right. It seems very scary to me.



Mashallah. I hope you gain many converts.



And I will do the same for you and everyone else. I will ask my community in Calgary to speak a special prayer for you.



Inshallah. But, this requires constant striving in the way of Allah, I hope you are successful.



Jazzakumullah.



I know they are, and it is very sad. The Holy Prophet (saw) planted such a beautiful seed of Islam.....it is sad that this beautiful plant has withering and dying roots.



No to gain happiness, become Ahmadhi.........where ever you are if you are Ahmadhi you will be happy.

I'm a bit confused as to what you are saying.

But, Ahmadhi's do believe in the seal of the Prophet's. This is verified through the many writings of the Mirza Ghulam Ahamd (as). It is even one of the conditions to becoming an Ahmadhi "that one has to promise that he/she believes in the seal of the Prophets...".

Now, saying that we believe that the majority of Muslims just have a wrong interpretation of the word Khatum. The scholars of other sects do not know how to argue with our interpretation, as it is supported by the Qur'an and ahadith, so they just tell all other Muslims not to read our books. They are afraid that more people will convert to the true Islam.

And when people do convert to the True Islam (meaning Ahmadiyyat) they have born in them a true love for Islam and the Holy Prophet (saw). This is seen so much so that in Sindh Punjab the Mullahs attacked new converts of Ahmadiyyat thinking that if we hurt them they will change their religion....but they saw that even the new converts upon being persecuted haven't changed their faith.

I would have given you a simple answer if the question did not confuse me. Now is this what you are asking:



And if I reworded this question would it be like this: Is my Messiah the last Prophet then?

No we do not believe that he will be the last Prophet. But, I don't know what your definition of Prophet is. If you believe a Prophet is some one that God speaks to through His angels then my answer is no. If it is not then please define the word Prophet as you interpret it. If that is your definition then after the Holy Prophet (saw) there were still many holy people who were visited by angels. There were still many people who received revelations, etc. For example the Khulufa. And an example of people speaking to God is in the last ten days of Ramadhan where people can choose to spend their time praying in a mosque. If a person is very religious it is said that an angel will descend on that person from God and that God will answer any open of his/her wishes.

So people can still speak to or hear from Allah. And the Khulufa were like Prophets. At the time of the Holy Prophet (saw) there were khalifa after he passed away (inna-lillahey-wa-inailaihi-rajiun). When our Messiah passed away there are also Khalifa.

or does your question mean:
Does my Messiah beleive in the seal of the Prophets?

Then the answer has been provided in my previous message that you replied to.

You will have to reword your question, because it is confusing me. If I am confused I won't be able to answer your question properly. Sorry for the trouble.



The status of our Messiah is complicated. We believe him to be the Messiah that all other religions/Holy scriptures had foretold the coming of.

We believe him to come in the spirit of all previous Prophets of Allah. Meaning in his self he contains the character of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc.

In a prophecy that was related to him Allah has stated "That I have exalted you (our Messiah) higher in rank then Isa, son of Mary."

But, he does not even come close in comparison to the Holy Prophet (saw), the greatest of all men and Prophets. Compared to the Holy Prophet (saw) who was the holiest among men of all time, who was a spiritual king where all eternal knowledge flowed from, our Promised Messiah is only a beggar. This our Messiah has stated in his own word in several books.

Our Messiah has never stated that he is better then the best Prophet Muhammad (saw), but anyone who knows or knew him knows that no one can equal the love that our Promised Messiah has for Muhammad (saw). He was the one who had the most love for our esteemed Prophet. But, in comparative status he was only a beggar whereas the Holy Prophet (saw) was a king.

I hope that somewhat explained your question. I hope you are somewhat satisfied.

If you have any future questions feel free to ask.

Khuda Hafiz.

Phew...I thought I was just blabbing last post again and you wouldn't find it okay......Thank God.

Firstly I would like to say that the majority of Muslims have become confused as to the actual status of Isa (as) in the first place. The reason for this is 1) because many Christians converted to Islam and thus brought some of their interpretations of things into Islam......and 2) ever since Muslims gained a lot of contact with the Christian world their concepts have been confused as well.

This is what the status of Isa (as) was before the advent of the Promised Messiah (as).
In status he was lower then Moses (as) because Moses (as) had come as a law-bearing Prophet from God....meaning he brought a new religion from God. Isa (as) did not come to start a new religion. He did not claim to be a law-bearing Prophet and this fact is supported by verses of the Bible and the Qur'an. Isa (as) just came to reform the Jews of the time because they had turned away from Allah's true path. The majority of Muslims have become confused and believe that after Muhammad (saw), Isa (as) was the second greatest Prophet. Which is not the case since Moses (as) was greater then him in status.

Now onto the topic of the Promised Messiah (as) being greater in status then Isa (as).

First I will how you a comparison to deliver my point, by asking and answering the following question: What made Muhammad (saw) a greater Prophet then Moses (as)?

Moses (as) and Muhammad (saw) were both law-bearing Prophets from Allah. There are many reasons that Muhammad (saw) is a greater Prophet in status then Moses (as) (you and I both know this) so I will just convey one point. One of the reasons Muhammad (saw) is a greater Prophet then Moses (as) is because the religion of Muhammad (saw), namely Islam, was created for the whole of mankind whereas the religion of Moses (as) was only created to guide the Israelite's, namely the Jews.

Now in light of this comparison you will understand what I am about to tell you.

The Promised Messiah, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (as) is greater in status then Isa (as) for the exact same reason as above. There is only one difference. Isa (as), being a follower of Moses (as) came to reform the Israelite's (the Jews) whereas the Ghulam Ahmad (as), being a follower of Muhammad (saw) came to reform the Muslims and convert the whole world. That is how he is greater in status.

The Promised Messiah (as) actually had a revelation from Allah where Allah stated that "I have exalted you higher in status then Isa ibne Maryam"


Now I will explain a different point because I believe you will be wondering about this.

The reason Muslims are confused and think Isa (as) is going to descend from the heaves is because of the following hadith:

1)"By the One who owns my soul, it is nigh, of a certainty, that the son of Mary will appear among you. He will be a judge, he will be just; so he will break the cross (refute Christian doctrines with reason and arguments--Commentary on Bukhari by Ainee) and kill the swine (a figurative speech denoting greedy, dirty and annoying person-- an abomination. Killing also is through spiritual means); and he will stop war." (Bukhari, Vol. 1, Babo Nozooli Isa)

2) "It is just possible that he who lives of you might meet Jesus the son of Mary who is the Mahdi and a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine..." (Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)

3) "There is no Mahdi but Isa." (Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)

Explanation of hadith presented: The son of Mary had died long before and it is an established fact that the dead can never return to this world, (The Quran, 21:95), so it is obvious that the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of God be on him, could not mean the coming of the same son of Mary who was put on the cross. Besides, the fact that the physical features of Jesus and the Promised Messiah described by the Holy Prophet (see Bukhari) are not the same is a proof positive of the fact that they are really two different persons and not one and the same. Moreover, the Holy Prophet has further made his meaning clear by saying that he would be "from among yourselves," i.e., he would neither descend from the heavens nor would be the same son of Mary, who is dead. On the other hand, he would appear from among the Muslims of the age.

Why did Allah use Isa's (as) name then? You may ask.

Allah is Wise and what he reveals to his Messengers is not incomprehensible by the common people. I will give you another example to convey my point and then I will explain.

In the Bible it is written something along the lines (and remember Muslims also believe that the Bible was a revealed book from Allah (even though it has changed a lot) so this is why I am posting a quote from the Bible.):

"And the Lord said unto me. They have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." (Deuteronomy 18:17-19)

It could be confused from this verse as well that it may be speaking of the second coming of Moses (as). But, this is not the case. This verse from the Bible clearly speaks of the Holy Prophet (saw) of Islam. How does it speak of the Holy Prophet (saw)?
-Muhammad (saw) was from among the brethren of the Israelite's as his people were the descendants of Ibrahim (as) through Ishmael (as).
-Muhammad (saw) was "like" Moses (as) in the fact that he would also be a law-bearing Prophet (meaning a Prophet who brings a new religion)

Now lets go back and look at the hadith.
When the hadith used the name Jesus (as) it may actually have meant that a Prophet would come that would be "like" Isa (as) as Muhammad (saw) was "like" Moses (as). If you think of it that way it becomes perfectly clear. As already mentioned Isa (as) came to reform the Jews of the time, so the Messiah that was to come for this day and age would have to come to reform something too. That something is Islam. So as he was a reformer the new Messiah would be "like" Isa (as).

This is exactly what Ghulam Ahamd (as) claims to have come to do, namely, to reform the Muslims of this day and age.

At the end I would like to presnt you with a verse of the Holy Qur'an which proves that Ghulam Ahamd (as) is the Messiah.

"And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, 'O children of Israel, surely, I am Allah's Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad. And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, this is manifest sorcery.'" (Al-Saff Chapter 61 : Verse 7)