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ryokomayuka

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:09 am


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/97051.php
Quote:
New York Times Magazine Examines Views About Fetal Pain, Effects On Abortion Policy
13 Feb 2008

The New York Times Magazine on Sunday examined different views about fetal pain among medical experts, lawmakers and advocates, as well as how such views have affected abortion policy.

According to the Times Magazine, some research -- including studies conducted by Sunny Anand, a pediatrician at Arkansas Children's Hospital and a professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences -- has suggested that fetuses can feel pain beginning at about 20 weeks' gestation. However, a 2005 review of 2,000 medical journal articles that involved fetal pain studies found that fetuses do not have the capacity to feel pain until about 29 to 30 weeks' gestation. The review was conducted by Mark Rosen and colleagues at the University of California-San Francisco and published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

According to the Times Magazine, some researchers believe that fetal responses interpreted as pain are just reflexes to the fetus' environment. Still other researchers, including University of Birmingham physiologist Stuart Derbyshire, believe that pain is not inherent at birth but rather is a learned experience during an infant's first year. Marc Van de Velde -- an anesthesiologist and pain expert at the University Hospital Gasthuisberg in Leuven, Belgium -- said the debate is "irrelevant" as to whether to give anesthetic to a fetus when performing a prenatal surgery. "We know that the fetus experiences a stress reaction, and we know that this stress reaction may have long-term consequences -- so we need to treat the reaction as well as we can," Van de Velde said.

However, the debate about fetal pain is "not irrelevant when applied to abortion," the Times Magazine reports. Since 2004, antiabortion groups have cited fetal pain in their efforts to restrict or ban abortion. In 2004, Anand testified as an expert witness in a case involving the federal ban (S 3) on so-called "partial-birth" abortion. Anand told the court that he "assume[d]" the procedure would cause "severe and excruciating pain" in fetuses beginning at 20 weeks' gestation. After Anand's testimony, federal Judge Richard Kopf in his opinion said it was impossible for him to determine whether a "fetus suffers pain as humans suffer pain." Kopf ruled the law unconstitutional on other grounds, but the law was upheld in April 2007 by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Legislative Implications

According to the Times Magazine, Anand's 2004 testimony "helped clear the way for legislation aimed specifically at fetal pain." Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) in 2004 and every year since has introduced a bill he called the Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act. The measure would require physicians to tell women seeking abortions at 20 weeks' gestation or later that their fetuses could feel pain and offer to deliver anesthesia "directly to the pain-capable unborn child." State-level legislation similar to Brownback's bill also has been introduced in 25 states. Five states -- Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Minnesota and Oklahoma -- have passed the measures into law. In addition, abortion counseling materials in Alaska, South Dakota and Texas mention fetal pain.

Anand -- who studied at Oxford University and Harvard University -- has become the "favorite expert" of abortion-rights opponents "precisely because of his credentials" as a neonatal pediatrician, the Times Magazine reports. Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) in 2004 said Anand's position is "made more astonishing" because he is not the "stereotypical" opponent of abortion rights. Although Anand believes that decisions on abortions should be made on a case-by-case basis, antiabortion advocates who quote him are "clear[ly]" attempting to change "perceptions of the fetus," according to the Times Magazine. Abortion-rights opponents who cite Anand are aiming to "personif[y]" the fetus by telling women seeking abortion that their fetuses can feel pain in an effort "to steer the woman's decision away from abortion," Elizabeth Nash, a public policy associate at the Guttmacher Institute, said.

Laura Myers -- an anesthesia researcher at Children's Hospital Boston and Harvard Medical School who analyzed Brownback's measure -- said abortion clinics do not have the necessary equipment to administer anesthesia to fetuses. Brownback's bill "makes a promise that the medical community can't fulfill," Myers said, adding that providing fetal anesthesia during abortions would be an experimental procedure that could carry health risks for the woman, including infection and bleeding. Rosen said that anesthesia during fetal operations is necessary to prevent complications but that administering anesthesia during abortions could endanger the woman's health. It is not "erring on the safe side" to endanger a woman's health by administering fetal anesthesia before an abortion, Rosen said (Paul, Times Magazine, 2/10).

Reprinted with kind permission from http://www.nationalpartnership.org. You can view the entire Daily Women's Health Policy Report, search the archives, or sign up for email delivery here. The Daily Women's Health Policy Report is a free service of the National Partnership for Women & Families, published by The Advisory Board Company.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:07 pm


Quote:
However, the debate about fetal pain is "not irrelevant when applied to abortion," the Times Magazine reports. Since 2004, antiabortion groups have cited fetal pain in their efforts to restrict or ban abortion. In 2004, Anand testified as an expert witness in a case involving the federal ban (S 3) on so-called "partial-birth" abortion. Anand told the court that he "assume[d]" the procedure would cause "severe and excruciating pain" in fetuses beginning at 20 weeks' gestation. After Anand's testimony, federal Judge Richard Kopf in his opinion said it was impossible for him to determine whether a "fetus suffers pain as humans suffer pain." Kopf ruled the law unconstitutional on other grounds, but the law was upheld in April 2007 by the U.S. Supreme Court.
I hate that. Like it's not human to begin with.

Also, I find the idea that newborn infants don't feel pain but rather learn it is laughable. Come on. Does anyone seriously expect me to believe that? But, even further, if it's true, does that mean it's okay to cause pain to a newborn, or to perform surgery on a newborn without anesthesia?

I.Am
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La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:05 pm


Quote:
Marc Van de Velde -- an anesthesiologist and pain expert at the University Hospital Gasthuisberg in Leuven, Belgium -- said the debate is "irrelevant" as to whether to give anesthetic to a fetus when performing a prenatal surgery. "We know that the fetus experiences a stress reaction, and we know that this stress reaction may have long-term consequences -- so we need to treat the reaction as well as we can," Van de Velde said.


Occam's Razor, people. Is it more likely a fetus is reacting to pain, like a newborn or a preemie does, or is it more likely that this is a non-painful stress reaction never observed in born humans?

One of the markers of coma level is response to painful stimuli (usually a knuckle to the sternum--try it, it's pretty bad). Unless a person is in a very deep coma, they will respond in one way or another. The part where relevance to the fetal state comes in is that the painful stimuli doesn't involve trauma, it's totally mediated by nerve endings for pain. They're not reacting because there's tissue damage (other things happen with that, in addition to pain signals) they're reacting because it just HURTS.

But hell, why bother anesthetizing a fetus when you're just killing it anyway? I laugh at any woman who dares to say that she cares about the fetus she's aborting. Don't get me started on cruel and unusual punishment--I'm sick of the punishment argument.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:29 pm


I.Am
Quote:
However, the debate about fetal pain is "not irrelevant when applied to abortion," the Times Magazine reports. Since 2004, antiabortion groups have cited fetal pain in their efforts to restrict or ban abortion. In 2004, Anand testified as an expert witness in a case involving the federal ban (S 3) on so-called "partial-birth" abortion. Anand told the court that he "assume[d]" the procedure would cause "severe and excruciating pain" in fetuses beginning at 20 weeks' gestation. After Anand's testimony, federal Judge Richard Kopf in his opinion said it was impossible for him to determine whether a "fetus suffers pain as humans suffer pain." Kopf ruled the law unconstitutional on other grounds, but the law was upheld in April 2007 by the U.S. Supreme Court.
I hate that. Like it's not human to begin with.

Also, I find the idea that newborn infants don't feel pain but rather learn it is laughable. Come on. Does anyone seriously expect me to believe that? But, even further, if it's true, does that mean it's okay to cause pain to a newborn, or to perform surgery on a newborn without anesthesia?


I agree, I find the whole "infants don't feel pain but learn it" a joke. Last time I checked, but is something you feel but you can learn different types of pain and what causes pain as you grow older but that doesn't you can't still feel it even if you don't fully understand it.

Infants may not understand pain and can't tell you about it but they obviously can still feel pain.

I agree with La Veuve Zin that it doesn't make sense when women say they care about their fetus yet they kill it cause they don't want a baby or want to be pregnant. If that's caring, I hate to see what hate and uncaring is.

rweghrheh

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