|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:58 pm
Are there any nations that are actually socialist? Has any country even gave it a shot yet?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:50 pm
The USSR was socialist and covered over 1/6th of the globe. Now only Belarus remains of that group, though many are returning down the path. Moldova has elected a Communist president as well in the balkans. Not to mention that many countries ascribe to socialism and are actively building it in some form or another (nore that these are not all Marxian): The Peoples Republic of China, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Lybia, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Ecuador
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:51 pm
PRC, Vietnam, Cuba and NK.
They be the deformed workers states.
However, I must say that the emphasis is on the /deformed/. In these countries the capitalists and landowners were expropriated and the economy collectivised. We see in china that there have been inroads made by capitalism in the special economic zones, however, these are only part of the countryand the majority of industry/the most important industry is still collectivised under the planned economy of the the ruling stalinists.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:50 pm
Fell into Trotskty have we Graccvhs?
If you review the program of the PRC as well as Vietnam and its other neighbors I'm fairly well convinced that the most advanced sections of the proletariat of those nations are still firmly in step with the Party there. Not to mention that we see a lot of hope from Hu Juntao and Vietnam's newest resolutions (China makes numerous pledges and is looking into expanding planning's role in the economy again utilizing lessons learned from the USSR (mainly that collectivized agriculture is worthless compared to state owned farming). Vietnam also believes that it will be up to western standards in the not too distant future (a huge leap).
The parties in Cuba, Vietnam, and China are hardly "Stalinist", most of them follow more traditional Marxist-Leninist norms, that is, democratic centralism (though Cuba has had Castro since 59', he's an intensley popular figure - oh, also to note that Stalin is officially denounced within the Partido Communista Del Cuba, and any member who declares in favor of Stalin is to be purged), and almost all are modelled after the Soviet Union's constitution. These states are merely following an historical path that is laid out for them by their culture and their societal norms. Socialism isn't a one size fits all glove, but what is acceptable to the Chinese proletariat, and which is historically progressive, is the proper course for them. But what is the proper course for the Chinese proletariat isn't at all like the course that western proletarians will have to take.
I won't even comment on how hilarious it is that Trotsky wanted to comment on the "stalinist" nature of various states when it was he himself who said that the Bolsheviks were forced to dissolve the National Assembly in Russia because popular democracy as most western nations know it, is completely useless (whereas the critique of "stalinist" nations is that they aren't like western democracies!).
I will also note that NK was at one time a shining star for socialism (even if the leader workers' party allowed several excesses) until its encirclement, banishment of trade, and perpetual state of siege caused its military camp to lose its head and abandon scientific socialism in favor of militarism and religiosity.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:31 pm
REDGallenger I won't even comment on how hilarious it is that Trotsky wanted to comment on the "stalinist" nature of various states when it was he himself who said that the Bolsheviks were forced to dissolve the National Assembly in Russia because popular democracy as most western nations know it, is completely useless (whereas the critique of "stalinist" nations is that they aren't like western democracies!). My sneaking suspicion here is that he was thinking of "democracy" differently at each time. Maybe learned something new. Cuz, that you know.. that happens sometimes. Which is why context is important. razz
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:14 am
REDGallenger I will also note that NK was at one time a shining star for socialism (even if the leader workers' party allowed several excesses) until its encirclement, banishment of trade, and perpetual state of siege caused its military camp to lose its head and abandon scientific socialism in favor of militarism and religiosity. dont you be talking smack about Juche! lol
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:31 am
Monsieur Rosebud REDGallenger I will also note that NK was at one time a shining star for socialism (even if the leader workers' party allowed several excesses) until its encirclement, banishment of trade, and perpetual state of siege caused its military camp to lose its head and abandon scientific socialism in favor of militarism and religiosity. dont you be talking smack about Juche! lol HERE HERE!!!! Juche is the will of the masses!!!! you will have your glass of orange juche and like it! scream Was it the early period after the Korean war that North Korea was called an economic miracle and south Korea a hell hole? When it comes to religion Id still rather support Juche then any other one of the major cults...c.c
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:25 am
If I remember correctly NK's economy was in a boom phase into the late 70's, and then it completely tanked (especially after the fall of the USSR - but also a drop occured when the sino-soviet split really materialized and the first of the kim family repudated Khrushchev for his secret speech).
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:24 am
Quote: Fell into Trotskty have we Graccvhs? Hmm, I guess you must not have noticed any of my posts through 2006... I have been trotskyist, for... well, most of my communist life. Quote: If you review the program of the PRC as well as Vietnam and its other neighbors I'm fairly well convinced that the most advanced sections of the proletariat of those nations are still firmly in step with the Party there. Um, what? if I look at the programe i will see that people agree with the programe? I'm guessing you did not mean that to come out like that... Quote: The parties in Cuba, Vietnam, and China are hardly "Stalinist", most of them follow more traditional Marxist-Leninist norms, that is, democratic centralism (though Cuba has had Castro since 59', he's an intensley popular figure - oh, also to note that Stalin is officially denounced within the Partido Communista Del Cuba, and any member who declares in favor of Stalin is to be purged), and almost all are modelled after the Soviet Union's constitution. Stalinists do not have to like stalin. Stalinism refers to the bureaucratic nature of the state, not ones position on whether stalin was a good bloke or not. Also, the fact that Cuba purges anyone who claims for Stalin is a sighn of their Stalinism. Because they do not fight to win the person over, nor even solve the situation democraticaly, but instead bureaucraticaly kick the person out. Quote: These states are merely following an historical path that is laid out for them by their culture and their societal norms. Socialism isn't a one size fits all glove, but what is acceptable to the Chinese proletariat, and which is historically progressive, is the proper course for them. But what is the proper course for the Chinese proletariat isn't at all like the course that western proletarians will have to take. Sophistry. The historical path laid out befor them is betrail by the CCP and the third international. Remember the ordering of the disolution of the CCP into the KMD, and then when Chiang Kai Shek started massaccring communists called for an alliance with the left wing of the KMD which starter killing them and handng them over to Chiang. Remember the ordered creation of the Shanghai Soviet? It was heroic action on the part of the workers, but failed because they were demoralised and had no real support. In '49, the CCP ordered workers to not revolt against the bourgeoisie: the CCP wanted a coalition gov't. Here and there, workers still revolted. The Red Army crushed them. It was only in '51 when the remaining bourgeoisie and the nobility began to get scared about the Korean war that they were finally crushed. It is all good and well to talk about the path of each state, but not if you ignore that path. It is the Stalin School Of Falsification all over again. Quote: I won't even comment on how hilarious it is that Trotsky wanted to comment on the "stalinist" nature of various states when it was he himself who said that the Bolsheviks were forced to dissolve the National Assembly in Russia because popular democracy as most western nations know it, is completely useless (whereas the critique of "stalinist" nations is that they aren't like western democracies!). I do not know if you learned that from your stalinist CP, or through contact with fake-Trotskyists, but that is not the reason for Trotsky's opposition to Stalin. Trotsky opposed Stalin because of his bureaucratic tendencies, his opposition to world revolution, and his overall conservativeness. Read The Revolution Betrayed if you want to know what Trotsky actually said.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:02 am
Quote: Hmm, I guess you must not have noticed any of my posts through 2006... I have been trotskyist, for... well, most of my communist life. I must have been away - I still remember you going on and on about Leninism in the strict sense biggrin Quote: Um, what? if I look at the programe i will see that people agree with the programe? I'm guessing you did not mean that to come out like that... "The People" in the broad sense arn't particularly important to the CPC, from the standpoint of the construction of a program for socialism - merely the most advanced segments of the proletariat. "The People" should have no part in the construction of a program for a party which is that of the most advanced segments of the proletariat - to create a program "for the people" would be oppertunism, and I think that's fairly plain to see. The only role that would be played in a program by the uneducated or backwards strata of society would be in what way it would be best to educate them, and at the same time, create progress towards socialism. The CPC laid out the Chinese's specific path to socialism, and being the party of the most advanced segment of the working people, this is what will be done - barring historical faults and unexpected events, but these will be only temporary. Quote: Stalinists do not have to like stalin. Stalinism refers to the bureaucratic nature of the state, not ones position on whether stalin was a good bloke or not. So, just how is a state to operate without a bureaucracy? And furthermore, even if the Soviet state was "bureaucratic" isn't this centralizing state consistent with the Marxist-Leninist precept of a dictatorship (coercive powerful state) withering away. I would also like to point out that Ideological Pluralism runs completely against *everything* that was ever laid down by Lenin. Thus, Stalinists cannot, must not, be tolerated in a party that is to become, or is, the vanguard of the people, because Stalin's contributions to theory are small (in essence falling only to his introduction of nonconflicting classes and socialism in one nation both of which aren't necessarily supported by history). The Vanguard party is only for the most advanced - all those who deviate have no place in the vanguard. This is substantiated by everything Lenin wrote in his two main works on party organization "What is To Be Done" and "Two Steps" not to meantion "Two Tactics." Your analysis ofChina is also lacking. In what why does it show that the CPC didn't have the best interest of the proletariat in mind? If they chose not to revolt at certain times, or thought that (what they had been doing siding wit hthe KMD) what they had been doing was fine - this was out of tactical and theoretical conviction. Of course there may have been mistakes or errors, but this has nothing to do with the character of a party. All parties make mistakes - this doesn't mean they don't have the proletariat's best interest in mind. Quote: do not know if you learned that from your stalinist CP, or through contact with fake-Trotskyists, but that is not the reason for Trotsky's opposition to Stalin. Trotsky opposed Stalin because of his bureaucratic tendencies, his opposition to world revolution, and his overall conservativeness. Read The Revolution Betrayed if you want to know what Trotsky actually said. I have read Trotsky's Revolution Betrayed, as well has the first two volumes of his history of the Russian Revolution. While both aren't so bad, I prefer his histories, since his talk of "Bureaucracy" is just a buzz word for the ultraleft segment that he represents - an impotent and isolated segment. Yes, Stalin's regime was excessive and overcentralized, to say otherwise is not "stalinist" it's ahistorical. But the specifically centralized state that was fostered by the leading cadre of the Party (Stalin and his immediate subordinates) can not so easily be summed up as "bureaucratic" and the errors within the Soviet state aren't something so easily simplfied. Do I admit that simplification has its place in science, including our science, of course. But this is a grotesque simplification. I would point you to Brahman Azad's "Hereoic Struggle; Bitter Defeat" and Fidel Castro's "Blaming Stalin for Everything is Historical Simplism."
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:44 pm
Gallenger, you have two instances of intellectual dishonesty I can see. Such is not nice. They are: Quote: "The People" in the broad sense arn't particularly ... I said nothing about 'The' people. The bit said there was asking if you could say what you intended to say in a more coherent manner, as it seems you had an attack of the garbbles when you typed it. It is not nice to put words into other peoples mouths when their mouth is not even open. Quote: I would also like to point out that Ideological Pluralism runs completely against *everything* that was ever laid down by Lenin. The implication s that I am /for/ pluralism, which you should personally know that I am against, considering the varrious messages I have sent you about... cleaning up the guild. The fact is, and it should be plain to all who read my post, that I am against the /way/ the 'pro-stalin'-ers are removed from the party. A healthy party has no need to fear from allowing one comrade(or more) freedom of speech within the party. However, the party must, by its nature, fight against such divergent views, until either: 1: the person is won over to the line of the rest of the party 2:the person is not won over and splits from the party 3:the person convinces the party and kicks the 'anti-stalin'-ers 4:the person wins and the 'anti-stalin'-ers split from the party. Ok, now onto my analysis of china. Sure, it leaves out wheather the party thought it was doing what was best, as I doubt it would do what it could not make itself believe is right. No, my analysis is based on the fact that the CCP, following the kremlin, did stupid things that should not have been done, because of bad theory. Denying permanent revolution, et al. Nowhere is the blame placed on stalin. You say you have read /revolution betrayed/, well, Trotsky has a nice rant on how the bureaucracy found him, not the other way around, that is, he represented the bureaucracy, he did not rule it. Quote: In Lenin’s Declaration of the Rights of the Toiling and Exploited People – presented by the Soviet of People’s Commissars for the approval of the Constituent Assembly during its brief hours of life – the “fundamental task” of the new regime was thus defined: “The establishment of a socialist organization of society and the victory of socialism in all countries.” The international character of the revolution was thus written into the basic document of the new regime. No one at that time would have dared present the problem otherwise! In April 1924, three months after the death of Lenin, Stalin wrote, his brochure of compilations called The Foundations of Leninism: “For the overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the efforts of one country are enough – to this the history of our own revolution testifies. For the final victory of socialism, for the organization of socialist production, the efforts of one country, especially a peasant country like ours, are not enough – for this we must have the efforts of the proletarians of several advanced countries.” [[...]] Marxism sets out from the development of technique as the fundamental spring of progress, and constructs the communist program upon the dynamic of the productive forces. If you conceive that some cosmic catastrophe is going to destroy our planet in the fairly near future, then you must, of course, reject the communist perspective along with much else. Except for this as yet problematic danger, however, there is not the slightest scientific ground for setting any limit in advance to our technical productive and cultural possibilities. Marxism is saturated with the optimism of progress, and that alone, by the way, makes it irreconcilably opposed to religion. The material premise of communism should be so high a development of the economic powers of man that productive labor, having ceased to be a burden, will not require any goad, and the distribution of life’s goods, existing in continual abundance, will not demand – as it does not now in any well-off family or “decent” boarding-house – any control except that of education, habit and social opinion. Speaking frankly, I think it would be pretty dull-witted to consider such a really modest perspective “utopian.” Capitalism prepared the conditions and forces for a social revolution: technique, science and the proletariat. The communist structure cannot, however, immediately replace the bourgeois society. The material and cultural inheritance from the past is wholly inadequate for that. In its first steps the workers’ state cannot yet permit everyone to work “according to his abilities” – that is, as much as he can and wishes to – nor can it reward everyone “according to his needs”, regardless of the work he does. In order to increase the productive forces, it is necessary to resort to the customary norms of wage payment – that is, to the distribution of life’s goods in proportion to the quantity and quality of individual labor. Marx named this first stage of the new society “the lowest stage of communism”, in distinction from the highest, where together with the last phantoms of want material inequality will disappear. In this sense socialism and communism are frequently contrasted as the lower and higher stages of the new society. “We have not yet, of course, complete communism,” reads the present official Soviet doctrine, “but we have already achieved socialism – that is, the lowest stage of communism.” In proof of this, they adduce the dominance of the state trusts in industry, the collective farms in agriculture, the state and co-operative enterprises in commerce. At first glance this gives a complete correspondence with the a priori – and therefore hypothetical – scheme of Marx. But it is exactly for the Marxist that this question is not exhausted by a consideration of forms of property regardless of the achieved productivity of labor. By the lowest stage of communism Marx meant, at any rate, a society which from the very beginning stands higher in its economic development than the most advanced capitalism. Theoretically such a conception is flawless, for taken on a world scale communism, even in its first incipient stage, means a higher level of development that that of bourgeois society. Moreover, Marx expected that the Frenchman would begin the social revolution, the German continue it, the Englishman finish it; and as to the Russian, Marx left him far in the rear. But this conceptual order was upset by the facts. Whoever tries now mechanically to apply the universal historic conception of Marx to the particular case of the Soviet Union at the given stage of its development, will be entangled at once in hopeless contradictions. Russia was not the strongest, but the weakest link in the chain of capitalism. The present Soviet Union does not stand above the world level of economy, but is only trying to catch up to the capitalist countries. If Marx called that society which was to be formed upon the basis of a socialization of the productive forces of the most advanced capitalism of its epoch, the lowest stage of communism, then this designation obviously does not apply to the Soviet Union, which is still today considerably poorer in technique, culture and the good things of life than the capitalist countries. It would be truer, therefore, to name the present Soviet regime in all its contradictoriness, not a socialist regime, but a preparatory regime transitional from capitalism to socialism.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|