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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:55 pm
The movie The Matrix poses many philosophical questions, relating both to existentialism and the most practical philosophy of ethics. My favorite is the "red pill/blue pill" situation.
If you swallow the blue pill, you forget everything and wake up to live the most perfectly blissful experience of your choosing.
If you swallow the red pill, you wake up naked in a liquid-filled chamber, your body connected by wires to a vast mechanical tower covered with identical pods. You live the rest of your short life in cold, cramped, miserable conditions under almost constant fear of being killed (or worse), but you finally know the truth.
Which pill would you choose and why? What conditions would it take for you to accept the blue pill?
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:38 am
Why be enlightened if you're going to suffer for eternity? =|
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:58 pm
Paracket Why be enlightened if you're going to suffer for eternity? =| *nod* That's a viewpoint consistent with Utilitarian philosophy. I agree with you completely.
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:53 pm
The red pill.
The blue pill is fear. Choosing to give up and stop learning, stop seeking truth. To exchange wonder and reason for selfish ignorance.
To know the truth is not necessarily to suffer. You cannot make that assumption if you have no idea what you are really making an assumption about, can you? That is just a further expression of fear of the unknown.
Both pills still seem to lead to death. But the red pill provides the notion that, if you thought you knew the entire truth of the world, and suddenly it all changed, who is to say that something greater than that does not exist beyond the red pill world?
I will choose the truth over ignorance any day, no matter how ugly it may be. Just because the truth is new and different does not mean that one day I will not be comfortable with it and learn from it.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:31 am
i have already chosen the red pill and there is no going back, but suffering is not necessary, suffering is a symptom of resistance and false knowledge. if you are talking about enlightenment (paracket) then neither of those conditions should be true and thus in the face of any and all adversity there will be no suffering. now i will also mention that i have never known a person who is in such a state and i think that the term enlightenment is used in many ways with a meaning that varies from person to person as many people use it to justify themselves.
this is an excellent question though with good points by all and i will have to think more about it.
good day
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:52 am
Zurvan Razandel The red pill. The blue pill is fear. Choosing to give up and stop learning, stop seeking truth. To exchange wonder and reason for selfish ignorance. To know the truth is not necessarily to suffer. You cannot make that assumption if you have no idea what you are really making an assumption about, can you? That is just a further expression of fear of the unknown. Both pills still seem to lead to death. But the red pill provides the notion that, if you thought you knew the entire truth of the world, and suddenly it all changed, who is to say that something greater than that does not exist beyond the red pill world? I will choose the truth over ignorance any day, no matter how ugly it may be. Just because the truth is new and different does not mean that one day I will not be comfortable with it and learn from it. In my head, I would think an absolute truth is utterly useless unless you could utilize it. So what if you know the "truth". You're going to sit in a tube for the rest of your life. You will experience the more painstakingly long, and uneventful thing ever. Why understand the cosmos and life when you cannot experience it? And if the blue pill is any perfectly blissful experience of your choosing, why not ask for the life you've always wanted which includes the knowledge you would acquire in the red pill's experience?
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:22 pm
I've heard a few knee-jerk reactions that fail to cite any kind of accepted philosophical doctrines. This is supposed to be a thought experiment, not an opinion poll.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:57 am
Paracket Zurvan Razandel The red pill. The blue pill is fear. Choosing to give up and stop learning, stop seeking truth. To exchange wonder and reason for selfish ignorance. To know the truth is not necessarily to suffer. You cannot make that assumption if you have no idea what you are really making an assumption about, can you? That is just a further expression of fear of the unknown. Both pills still seem to lead to death. But the red pill provides the notion that, if you thought you knew the entire truth of the world, and suddenly it all changed, who is to say that something greater than that does not exist beyond the red pill world? I will choose the truth over ignorance any day, no matter how ugly it may be. Just because the truth is new and different does not mean that one day I will not be comfortable with it and learn from it. In my head, I would think an absolute truth is utterly useless unless you could utilize it. So what if you know the "truth". You're going to sit in a tube for the rest of your life. You will experience the more painstakingly long, and uneventful thing ever. Why understand the cosmos and life when you cannot experience it? And if the blue pill is any perfectly blissful experience of your choosing, why not ask for the life you've always wanted which includes the knowledge you would acquire in the red pill's experience? the use of the term absolute truth in both cases is fairly loose, i cannot say for certain what zurvan means, but it seems that Paracket sees this as some thought or knowledge. if you use a more revered meaning that of Hindu religion, yoga and such, absolute truth is the state achieved through uniting the self with the divine and through that to all existence. you can see instances in the sixties where people claimed this state could be experienced through use of psychedelics, however what they experienced was unstable and only temporary while the absolute is eternal and absolute. the only way to achieve unity is through discipline and to have any chance a t discipline one has to live aware in the real world. in a fantasy setting such as the matrix it is easy for us to say that you take the blue pill and everything that you ever wanted could be given you in absolute ignorance but that has no place in our REAL world, here in the real world ignorance is a state of reoccurring suffering we all know it because we are all in partial ignorance we live every day this way, and you may say that "oh well i am mostly happy." but what you mean is that you are mostly satisfied, you are mostly content, most people have trouble imagining what real happiness could be, how we could be free from desire and regret and disappointment not for one day but always. i think i have fallen far from the thread but i followed it to the end. you are welcome to choose however you like, you could take the blue pill go to school as you are expected, get a good job as you are expected, make the monies and marry someone who will make you satisfied, but something in the depths of your being will always be empty and dissatisfied, it will alway seek to be fulfilled and at some point it will be too late to begin, too late to take the other pill so to say. and verte i am sorry i dont have more quotes but i am not really the quoting type i have studied much but i think and speak for myself.
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:25 pm
Well Firstly I would like to say Neo wasn't given that option. He had no idea what was beyond the red pill other than a word. Matrix. He didn't know the truth. But I am just supposing you mean I was in his place and I knew.
Well If I knew what was beyond the red pill I would take the blue pill.
Why live in boring poverty when you could live in riches. Sure it doesen't seem to be very humane but think about it. Having to live in tattered cloths, constantly in war against machines. All you have to eat is nasty crap(that snot yogert stuff in the matrix 1). No books. 1 religeon. Little hope of survival. No computers. No video games. Think about it. By playing on gaia you are taking the blue pill. You are chosing the fake over the real.
Think of it this way. I don't care about beating the robots. Weather you are in the real world, or a fake world, both are filled with confuzion pain, suffering, and death. In both worlds you suffer. Might as well chose the one with my FAMILY in it. Not to mention TASTY FOOD. Also BOOKS VIDEOGAMES, COMPUTER(which means gaia), and much much more.
My reasoning behind this is my goal in life has allways been, and allways will be, to wake up, have some coffe, go to an 8 hour job. Go to my second job. Go home to my wife and two children. Medetate. Read. To work. Just a simple life. That's it. So what if it's in the matrix. It's still my life.
You've eaten burger king. It's tasty but it's not real food. IT's all prossessed. Most of the things in our kitchens are processed. Fake food. But it tastes good so we eat it. We would wrather go to the store, buy some processed chicken, easy bake it, and eat it, then raise a pig, slaughter it with a knife, boil it in a cauldren, and eat it that way. One is easyer, and better than the others. It's beneficial for the humans, and the robots. Anyway that's my opinion.
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:15 am
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:58 am
the matrix is a spin-off of ghost in the shell... i recommend the latter rather than the movie trilogy.
absolutely out of discussion... sorry...
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:47 pm
The GITS movie or the anime series? Both are good.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:50 pm
la Demon Verte I've heard a few knee-jerk reactions that fail to cite any kind of accepted philosophical doctrines. This is supposed to be a thought experiment, not an opinion poll. Well, thought doesn't require citing. We might not all have had the honor of being educated in the many schools of Philosophy, but what we can all do and surely love to do is think, express and discuss. I humbly believe that's quite enough. Thinking, questioning, discussing and learning are the essence of Philosophy. Even the doctrines have a core of thought and idea. And.. "thought experiment"? Let's see.
thought 1 |θôt| noun 1 an idea or opinion produced by thinking or occurring suddenly in the mind : Maggie had a sudden thought | I asked him if he had any thoughts on how it had happened | Mrs. Oliver's first thought was to get help. See note at idea . opinion |əˈpinyən| noun a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge : I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance | that, in my opinion, is dead right. (Oxford. Dictionary: Version 1.0.1. Apple Computer, Inc. 2005) I think that speaks for itself. I hope you understand.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:03 pm
It would be a very hard decision. But.. in the end I do believe I would choose the red pill, for one main reason:
I do believe there is a difference between a state of happiness and the feeling of fulfillment. Many search for happiness and comfort throughout their lives, hoping it will allow them to make the most of their time alive and die content. But.. I think there's more to that. Suffering is unavoidable, imminent. So.. instead of looking for happiness, I try to find fulfillment, which includes the lessons learned from suffering as well as the bliss found in happy times. I think that if I were to take the blue pill, I would always know, despite how ideal my life could be, that it is not truth. This knowledge would prevent me from living a fulfilling life.. I would see it all as a lie, and therefore pointless. I would die with a final thought of regret.
No matter how terrible the world I entered upon taking the red pill would be, deep down I would know that it was real. And if I died a horrible, painful death, I would at least know the truth and have fought for it, and that last thought would make me content. If it was like the world in the Matrix, I would be 100% OK. BRING IT ON.
Sorry if this got so personal, but I think this is a deeply personal issue. redface
BTW: Very good topic.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:37 pm
The red pill, without a doubt. I'll try anything that makes a claim to truth, primarily because I don't really believe it.
To be more in the traditional vein of philosophy, I'd have to do it for ethical reasons. If we're living in "the matrix" that means that there are a huge number of actions that would otherwise be unethical that are actually ethical. Treatment of animals, for example, assuming that all the cats and dogs and squirrels aren't in their own little pods. The idea of which is kind of silly. But really, if everything except humans are simply a computer program, then what reason is there for restricting your actions towards anything but humans?
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