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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:13 pm
I believe that Axel, Roxas, and Namine all have hearts (or some form of one)
Axel seems to truly care about Roxas. True nobodies pretend to have hearts, but why would he pretend when he states that he would miss Roxas when no one was there?
When Sora leaves Twilight Town, he sheds a tear. Roxas was the one who was truly crying, however. he must have a heart to feel sorrow.
Namine shows concern throughout CoM for Sora. She is sad about what she did to Sora.
Although nobodies aren't supposed to have hearts, Ansem wrote in one of the Secret Reports about how Sora and his friends are exceptions to everything he and xeanhort and the rest of his students had uncovered about the heart.
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:25 pm
No, I believe they do NOT have hearts.
BUT- are still capable of emotion.
Why?
I came across this this, it sparked my interest, so I thought about it for a while...
Someone once stated that "Emotion is something you learn".
It makes a lot of sense, so...
If emotion is something you learn, it means that you can remember it. With your brain, and your body.
It would just be that the "heart" fully utilizes the memories of what you've learned about emotions, and develop them through there. Also, it could develop tendencies such as when someone says something rude, you'll get mad, etc...
Which would mean that the heart is only a tool of the emotions, and it would override memories and guide you solely through that, what it knows of emotions.
BUT, it would also be possible that, since the brain already does KNOW the emotions, it just utilizes the "logic" part, that you could still "have" emotions, and be able to unlock them...
But instead of using them through your heart, you'd use them through your brain.
Sort of how you'd teach yourself to use your "right side of the brain" when drawing to fully release your drawing potential...
Either that, or, that those select few nobodies have completely fooled themselves in believing they do have emotions, deep down, they know they don't, but it just hasn't come to realization. The brain is a powerful, powerful thing. I, sometimes, don't believe even myself because I can't remember if I made something up or it actually happened...
But, I dunno. Those are the two theories I believe in.
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:20 pm
I agree with many of the different viewpoints shown here, I have to say. This is probably because I have theorized over this so much that I can honestly not really contend either way whether Nobodies feel, or to what extent.
Roxas is a strange exception in himself in that he, unlike the others, seems to have something like a heart - some quality that denotes him from the other Nobodies. Axel alludes to this when he speaks to Roxas on the rooftop in KH:FM+. However, I sort of doubt that the trait that sets him apart is feeling. Examining him during the six days of Twilight Town reveals that he experiences serious lack of reaction to a lot of things that others would react to. For example - and this is just one example out of many - when his friends run through him as though he doesn't exist, Roxas doesn't even act depressed about this at all. And yet Roxas can wield the Keyblade, a weapon whose strength comes from the heart.
Perhaps a heart doesn't necessarily manifest itself through feelings...? Perhaps there's more to hearts than simply emotion? And, if that's the case, mightn't Nobodies have the capacity to feel, at least in some limited, perfunctory form?
Axel's another strange one. In Chain of Memories, he exhibits all the traits of a pathological liar. He is manipulative and capricious and utterly unmoved by murder, violence, and intrigue. But seeing Roxas leave has some effect on him. Why? Maybe it's because of Roxas' unique traits - because Roxas possessed something like a heart, and that drew Axel to him? Or maybe, again, they were both fooling themselves. Axel is certainly a convincing enough liar to delude himself into thinking that he feels.
And then there's Saix. Berserk mode would imply that Saix has some heavy thing hidden under the surface. We would call it anger issues, but he's not reputed to be capable of feeling; we would call it sadism, but would it be so repressed if he were truly a conscienceless being? One would think that his mania, too, is caused by something that works similar to a heart. Kingdom Hearts? Could that be the reason? I don't know, I'm talking out of my a** here, but perhaps that's it.
Demyx? Demyx has no such ties, but he seems to be capable of convincing himself that he's capable of feeling, as well.
It's nearly impossible to come up with some coherent theory on whether Nobodies can feel.
If Nobodies are creatures of habit, and emotion is a learned habit, then one would expect them to remember the habit of emotion. But that would, by default, mean that the Nobodies which lost their memories of Others completely - Roxas and Namine - would be emotionless. Granted, however, Roxas is pretty stark, and one could excuse it, too, by saying that they are unique cases, Nobodies with Others still alive and attached.
Then again, too, if emotion is a habit, conscience and societal rules should also be a habit. Not only that, to observe certain rules (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness) serves to keep groups stable and cohesive. As scientists and students of a leader of men, they must have realized the value of morality and of rules. Why, then, would they choose to transgress them, as they so clearly did?
I apologize for my rambling. I guess my point would be that we really can't know whether or not Nobodies have hearts. The myriad possibilities that excuse their emotions could be just projections that we, as emotional creatures, impose on them. Maybe we anthropomorphize them by instilling on them traits that we see in ourselves and others. Or maybe they really can feel.
Who knows? Not me. XD
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:39 pm
Good rant. That was fun to read.
...Damn you, for making such complex philosophical games. D:
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:46 pm
XD I can't believe someone made it through that whole thing.
You definitely deserve, like, a whole virtual pie for that. In your choice of flavor.
I keep telling myself to shut up, but I'm not good at that. XDDD
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:26 am
XD I came up several months ago with a secondary theory that bears a close resemblance to a few of Nariiko's ideas, so I thought I'd throw it out here for you all to look at.
Here it goes.
We can accept that Nobodies - that is, the majority of them - do not have hearts.
However, we also see in-game that they view themselves as incomplete beings. They are aware of what they are missing. Hence the search for Kingdom Hearts - the Nobodies are trying to gain what they lack, seeking after the thing that will make them whole again.
And if they are aware that their hearts are missing, then they must experience longing or want in some form. And desire - in all its forms - is the root of emotion.
Perhaps Axel thinks he feels some attachment toward Roxas. Mightn't that attachment be projected longing for the heart that he no longer possesses? Mightn't that need, that fundamental incompletion, be a thing that is constantly felt among members of the Organization, but little expressed?
Emotion and desire go hand-in-hand. And when one is missing... perhaps the one covers up for what the other lacks. Anger, sadness, jealousy, affection, loneliness, all of human emotion stems from desire, and, if my proposal is true, Nobodies have desire aplenty. Thus, perhaps Nobodies are capable of feeling. Maybe. Just maybe.
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:05 pm
Oh- good job!
That... makes tons of sense.
Oh- I have some other ideas that would complement yours...
But, I gotta go to bed. D:
Tell you later.
And for that pie- I'll take sugar. xD
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:15 pm
o_o Sugar ... pie?
...
One case of juvenile diabetes, coming right up.
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:12 pm
...YOU'VE NEVER HAD SUGAR PIE BEFORE?!
It's like pie- with creme fudge. D: It's so effing good. D:
Yay. Diabetes. o( = _ =; )o
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:16 pm
XD No, I've never even heard of it before. But I'll take your word for it.
Also, what were your ideas? o.o
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:48 pm
It's amazing- go, buy some. NOW.
...I.... UHM... am working on that. I forgot them, just remembered... xDD
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:20 pm
XD Well, all right then. When you succeed in remembering, please do share them. :3
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:43 am
Well, it goes, sorta like this.. xDD
Erm, yeah. I'm tired, so they may not make sense...
About the hearts thing. xD
Well, they [ being the Organization, ] do -know-, as you said, that they are "incomplete beings".
And, they're trying to get their hearts back, are they not?
Which means, their hearts still exist.
Which got me thinking...
You know how people who have had limbs amputated, that they experience "phantom pains", right?
Because, their body still feels that they HAVE a leg or arm that is not there, that it still has a "connection" with the body.
It eventually fades away, BUT- legs aren't as powerful as a heart is, are they?
SO- if their hearts still exist, seeing as they are still so powerful, their body [ could ] still have a connection with the heart.
Which means, just as amputees experience "phantom pain", that they can, to some limit, experience forms of emotions?
And seeing as love is one of the supposed strongest emotions, wouldn't that mean they could... you know, some how "feel" it? Through the connection that could still exist?
...Ya know?
It's almost the same, [ as yours ] and I don't know what else to say, but... xD
I'm tired. Forgive me fer not making sense. crying
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:27 pm
....I Have a theory that I once discussed with Magentian on this very subject. Nobodies have no hearts, however they may still feel emotions to a limited aspect, through one of your theories, phantom pain, or having longing covering it up, something to that extent.
However, Roxas is diffrent. He at least has a partial heart, and a partial heart probally has the same ability as a normal heart. And Hearts are able to be connected, as sora's was connected to donalds and goofy's. As such, perhaps Roxas was able to make the connection to Axel, even though his heart was gone. And if that's possible, perhaps he was able to, in a manner of speaking, Ride the coattails of Roxas's heart. In that way, he was able to experiance emotion, or maybe even the illusion of emotion. Either way, while around Roxas, it's possible he felt like he had a heart.
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:51 pm
XD Nariiko, it's really funny that you bring up phantom limb pain - I actually used that concept in one of my fics. But yeah, that also makes sense. Assuming, of course, that Nobodies can feel, instead of just imitating themselves.
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