|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:41 pm
I had this conversation with the pastor of my church recently. She was talking about sometimes she had to lie in hospitals to go visit people, like if a woman was dying and had no family, then they hospitals wouldn't let anyone see that person, so the pastor would tell people that she was "the daughter" so that she could be with this person. We joked that this was "lying in the name of God"
I know that there are a lot of people who think that any lie is a sin, and I wondered what you thought of lying in order to do something in the "name of God"?
(Sorry for my inactivity guys. Life got in the way. D smile
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:16 pm
Doesn't make sense to me. Especially if one's faith proclaims lying as a sin. Sinning in the name of God? Sounds contradictory to me.
If her faith isn't that strict when it comes to lying, then perhaps she can justify her actions, but as from what I understand of Christianity, lying isn't exactly a good action. And what she is essentially doing is pretending to be someone she's not, that is also considered a sin from what I understand of most Christian doctrine. Once again I come to the same conclusion: Sinning in the name of God is contradictory and hyprocritical. How can someone denounce sin but then sin in what they say is the name of God? It doesn't make logical sense. It is like the Pharisees of Christ's time, who proclaimed God's decrees, but then lorded themselves over others. Who even broke decrees in their private lives. Hyprocrites, Christ called them.
From what I understand of hospital rules at least in my state, they normally let pastors/priests visit a patient, especially a dying one. Some patients may request a pastor or priest to be present, and if they do not, then it is not what they want, and it should not be forced. But then if they are unable to request anything, then I am unsure of the procedure there. I do know that my priest is normally allowed to go anyway for last rites especially if the patient is of the same religion.
So why would lying be for God even in such a situation? I really don't understand her position.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
|
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:44 pm
Anarya Doesn't make sense to me. Especially if one's faith proclaims lying as a sin. Sinning in the name of God? Sounds contradictory to me.
If her faith isn't that strict when it comes to lying, then perhaps she can justify her actions, but as from what I understand of Christianity, lying isn't exactly a good action. And what she is essentially doing is pretending to be someone she's not, that is also considered a sin from what I understand of most Christian doctrine. Once again I come to the same conclusion: Sinning in the name of God is contradictory and hyprocritical. How can someone denounce sin but then sin in what they say is the name of God? It doesn't make logical sense. It is like the Pharisees of Christ's time, who proclaimed God's decrees, but then lorded themselves over others. Who even broke decrees in their private lives. Hyprocrites, Christ called them.
From what I understand of hospital rules at least in my state, they normally let pastors/priests visit a patient, especially a dying one. Some patients may request a pastor or priest to be present, and if they do not, then it is not what they want, and it should not be forced. But then if they are unable to request anything, then I am unsure of the procedure there. I do know that my priest is normally allowed to go anyway for last rites especially if the patient is of the same religion.
So why would lying be for God even in such a situation? I really don't understand her position. But a lot of the time, if she's not a family member then even if she is a paster they refuse to let her see the person. If someone is dying, and wants to pray with their past before they go - isn't it better to do that, rather than just say "oh well I'm not a member of their family, so they can just die alone"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:47 pm
Violet_Abyss Anarya Doesn't make sense to me. Especially if one's faith proclaims lying as a sin. Sinning in the name of God? Sounds contradictory to me.
If her faith isn't that strict when it comes to lying, then perhaps she can justify her actions, but as from what I understand of Christianity, lying isn't exactly a good action. And what she is essentially doing is pretending to be someone she's not, that is also considered a sin from what I understand of most Christian doctrine. Once again I come to the same conclusion: Sinning in the name of God is contradictory and hyprocritical. How can someone denounce sin but then sin in what they say is the name of God? It doesn't make logical sense. It is like the Pharisees of Christ's time, who proclaimed God's decrees, but then lorded themselves over others. Who even broke decrees in their private lives. Hyprocrites, Christ called them.
From what I understand of hospital rules at least in my state, they normally let pastors/priests visit a patient, especially a dying one. Some patients may request a pastor or priest to be present, and if they do not, then it is not what they want, and it should not be forced. But then if they are unable to request anything, then I am unsure of the procedure there. I do know that my priest is normally allowed to go anyway for last rites especially if the patient is of the same religion.
So why would lying be for God even in such a situation? I really don't understand her position. But a lot of the time, if she's not a family member then even if she is a paster they refuse to let her see the person. If someone is dying, and wants to pray with their past before they go - isn't it better to do that, rather than just say "oh well I'm not a member of their family, so they can just die alone"? For that matter, isn't it what Jesus was against do defend rules simply for the rules sake, at the expense of the people? Jesus broke many of the "laws" back then, doing what he felt was the right thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Violet_Abyss Vice Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:39 pm
A pastor's primary job is to care for her flock. If that means breaking some of the rules, so be it. As Violet said, rules are great and all, but even Jesus condoned breaking them when following them would mean harming others.
My school's ecumenical chaplain once gave a lecture where he talked about a young couple that went to his church. They were expecting their first baby and he was there with them throughout the pregnancy. He shared in their hopes and dreams, he counciled them, he tried to mitigate their fears. But then, only a few days before the due date, something happened and the baby was stillborn. After nine months of hope, the baby died.
The couple begged their chaplain to baptise the baby. The loss of their child was bad enough, but they couldn't bear to think that the infant they had cared for for so long would be denied entry into heaven because it died before it could be baptised. So the chaplain baptised the baby's body, even though it was against the rules.
Why? Because his duty is to his flock as well as to God. That couple needed the baby to be baptised. It was the only way that they could regain some peace of mind. To refuse because of the rules could have meant shaking their faith, turning them away from God, causing them irreparable pain. As a community leader, as the guardian of his congregation, the chaplain broke the rules to do what was best for those placed in his care by God.
As far as I am concerned, that's what your pastor is doing as well, Violet. She's lying because her flock needs her and her responsibility as their pastor, to be there with them in their time of need, is far more important than following the rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Violet_Abyss For that matter, isn't it what Jesus was against do defend rules simply for the rules sake, at the expense of the people? Jesus broke many of the "laws" back then, doing what he felt was the right thing. Exactly. I think your pastor is doing the right thing. And, in a metaphorical sense, as a spiritual leader, she sort of is a family member of those people. A religious community can be very similar to a family in many ways. My partner got into a car accident a while back (this is pre-civil partnership). When I went to see him, they asked if I was a family member. I said yes. Was it a lie? Well, in legal terms, yes. Legally, I was no more his family than a random person off the street. But as far as I was concerned, if you're with someone for years, you live together, and you've been each other's support system for God knows how long, that counts as family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:18 am
SinfulGuillotine Violet_Abyss For that matter, isn't it what Jesus was against do defend rules simply for the rules sake, at the expense of the people? Jesus broke many of the "laws" back then, doing what he felt was the right thing. But as far as I was concerned, if you're with someone for years, you live together, and you've been each other's support system for God knows how long, that counts as family.
Violet, you defeated my devil's advocate quite thoroughly, as did you, Enj. Kudos to you both! whee
My personal opinion is that a pastor/priest is a representative of Christ, and just as Christ shepherded the flock, He calls them to shepherd His flock in His stead, which Kukushka explained quite well.
Actions toward one another can be discerned to be good or not through the lens of Love. Love is the fulfillment of the law - the pastor acted out of love, and so did not break any rules nor did the pastor sin. Love for another does no harm. Love is of God, especially in that instance. Seeking to be with someone and comfort them on their deathbed is an act of Love, and Love is the fulfillment of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
