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 Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:32 pm
Something I wrote in another forum a long time ago. I think it has some valid points that I would like you guys to think about and respond to. Quote: *avoids b-slap* okay then. What we know is generally about getting the same results every time such that we can identify cause and effect relationships and predict the outcomes of related experiments to test (other, related tests help narrow down possible causes and get us to what truly causes such and such to happen). What we know at first is largely confined to what the five senses can tell us. We know what we can observe or experience and measure (sometimes). We know what a pear tastes like, but we can't really measure it, (save in the chemical receptors it triggers, i suppose). back to the cause-result stuff. back in the ancient times, before people really took the time to closely study the causes of much of what happens in the world, people usually jumped to a hasty conclusion if they saw even the tiniest similarity or coincidence between two cases (or saw anthing unique from that one situation compared to everything else). They took 'precautions' to make sure some of these things didn't happen, and when they didn't happen again, they thought they had the answer. Behold, the birth of superstition!!!! In all of this, men begin to notice that there was a certain order to everything in the natural world. Though it was sad that the little bird over there fell out of a tree and died, it made a meal for that fox over there, etc,etc... From this, among other things, people derived false (arguably) purpose: it's all for some higher design we're not privy to. And no design is possible without a designer (arguably)... So what we have is someone out there, looking out for us, making every A-Ok, just for us humans. "You know what, jorge? I think it'd be a good idea to keep that big guy happy, so everything goes right for us. better safe than sorry, ya know...". Heh, we'd all like to believe there's someone else out there, making sure things work out for us the way we want it, or even better than that. "No worries here, mate, the big guy'll take care of us". We'd also like to be able to control things we really can't, like the weather. "He'll take care of us, as long as we're faithful". Yep, we control the world with our faith, because we can't do it with anything else. "Oh look, that guy didn't make it... he must have been bad/evil (he didn't sacrifice anything or pray last winter...) and displeased the big guy (let this be a lesson to ye of little faith)... or it was his time to go, it was part of the plan all along, he's better off now..." Yessir, it's wonderful to know stuff will all turn out good in the end. Bah. BUT... order and balance =/= purpose... Is religon just wishful thinking? What do you think?
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:50 pm
Soulstrike96 Is religon just wishful thinking? What do you think? I personally don't think it's wishful thinking, but I can completely see how someone who hasn't personally witnessed a miracle or seen what God can do [or just hasn't noticed yet] can believe that. It's just a matter of faith vs. logic. Some parts of religion, like ANY religion don't seem all that logical sometimes but religion is more about how you feel in your heart. It bothers me when some people are so set on trying to disprove eachothers beliefs [Christianity disproving atheism visa-versa]. In other threads [not in this guild, but on different boards] I saw a lot of athiests trying to think of scientific explanations for any miracles that anyone mentioned. That bothers me because it's like, no one is hurting you by being religious. If religion gives them a purpose and higher meaning etc. then what right do you have to take that away from them? I have a strict no-conversion policy. If someone is interested and wants to learn, rock on, but people's personal beliefs should be up to them. That is why, soulstrike96 my friend I really appreciate that you are asking questions and being so respectful. If you like the answers to your questions and decide to give your heart to God, great, but otherwise because of you actually wanting to know more about the faith, you at least have enough of a basis about it to have intelligent input when religion comes up in discussions.
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:13 pm
Soulstrike96 Something I wrote in another forum a long time ago. I think it has some valid points that I would like you guys to think about and respond to. Quote: *avoids b-slap* okay then. What we know is generally about getting the same results every time such that we can identify cause and effect relationships and predict the outcomes of related experiments to test (other, related tests help narrow down possible causes and get us to what truly causes such and such to happen). What we know at first is largely confined to what the five senses can tell us. We know what we can observe or experience and measure (sometimes). We know what a pear tastes like, but we can't really measure it, (save in the chemical receptors it triggers, i suppose). back to the cause-result stuff. back in the ancient times, before people really took the time to closely study the causes of much of what happens in the world, people usually jumped to a hasty conclusion if they saw even the tiniest similarity or coincidence between two cases (or saw anthing unique from that one situation compared to everything else). They took 'precautions' to make sure some of these things didn't happen, and when they didn't happen again, they thought they had the answer. Behold, the birth of superstition!!!! In all of this, men begin to notice that there was a certain order to everything in the natural world. Though it was sad that the little bird over there fell out of a tree and died, it made a meal for that fox over there, etc,etc... From this, among other things, people derived false (arguably) purpose: it's all for some higher design we're not privy to. And no design is possible without a designer (arguably)... So what we have is someone out there, looking out for us, making every A-Ok, just for us humans. "You know what, jorge? I think it'd be a good idea to keep that big guy happy, so everything goes right for us. better safe than sorry, ya know...". Heh, we'd all like to believe there's someone else out there, making sure things work out for us the way we want it, or even better than that. "No worries here, mate, the big guy'll take care of us". We'd also like to be able to control things we really can't, like the weather. "He'll take care of us, as long as we're faithful". Yep, we control the world with our faith, because we can't do it with anything else. "Oh look, that guy didn't make it... he must have been bad/evil (he didn't sacrifice anything or pray last winter...) and displeased the big guy (let this be a lesson to ye of little faith)... or it was his time to go, it was part of the plan all along, he's better off now..." Yessir, it's wonderful to know stuff will all turn out good in the end. Bah. BUT... order and balance =/= purpose... Is religon just wishful thinking? What do you think? In regardes to the part i put in bold.... We don't control the world with our faith at all....we either unleashe wut God acn do with our faith or we limit it. He leaves that much up to us. And we don't have to have faith to do certain things in the world, like make our earth a cleaner place, you just do it! God gave us authority over the Earth, so we can make things happen. And just because something doesn't work out for a person doesn't mean that they are lacking in faith. We all go through rough times and we should put our trust in God and He will help us over our mounatins to make us stronger in faith. No one makes the assumption that you are a horrible person for going through rough times.
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:25 pm
one of my cousin's was a an engineer for nasa before he retired to become a farmer and one thing that he came to believe was the more he studied the starts, etc. the more he realized that there has to be a divine power of some sort. he was really interesting from what i was told, had a 169 iq and everything. i guess he just got burned out and turned to faith and the simplier side of life.
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:21 pm
The function of religion was not so much just expaination for the then-mysterious, but a means to connect to the intangible and the divine. Man has always had this call to the infinite, be it manifested in the sciences, the arts, or, and this is especially true, faith.
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:40 am
I have to agree totally that it is explainations for things people cannot explain or refuse to accept the explaination to. Look at the ancient Roman/Greek gods. One for every element, the sun, the moon, the stars, vanity, wisdom, overlord of hell, life, death, everything (there is even a demi-god from WAY before the time of Jesus who preached, was killed, rose from the dead 3 days later and then ascended to Olympus). And yet, if I'm being perfectly honest, I find all that more beliveable than Christianity.
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:58 pm
The Kaptain I have to agree totally that it is explainations for things people cannot explain or refuse to accept the explaination to. Look at the ancient Roman/Greek gods. One for every element, the sun, the moon, the stars, vanity, wisdom, overlord of hell, life, death, everything (there is even a demi-god from WAY before the time of Jesus who preached, was killed, rose from the dead 3 days later and then ascended to Olympus). And yet, if I'm being perfectly honest, I find all that more beliveable than Christianity. Have you even read some of the mythological stories? How can you find that more believable than what Christians believe? By the way.....Jesus' life, death, and the way He was risen from the dead was prophisied way way before it even happened! Were any of those mythological stories prophisied over before they happened? Also, those stories were passed down via story telling. They weren't written for a very long while. Stories get changed like that.....but the Bible was the first book to be "printed". Sure, they've been translated and through that, some meaning lost, but we have book sthat give the Hebrew language and each meaning for the translations.
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:04 pm
The Kaptain I have to agree totally that it is explainations for things people cannot explain or refuse to accept the explaination to. Look at the ancient Roman/Greek gods. One for every element, the sun, the moon, the stars, vanity, wisdom, overlord of hell, life, death, everything (there is even a demi-god from WAY before the time of Jesus who preached, was killed, rose from the dead 3 days later and then ascended to Olympus). And yet, if I'm being perfectly honest, I find all that more beliveable than Christianity. The reason such archaic faiths as the greeks existed was not so much to answer the why, but to connect to the reality of their existence in their lives. To use Apollo, who was said to move the sun, man needed a way to link himself to this powerful force that ruled his very existence. So to with the emmotions these Gods created or represented, like Aphrodite. All people loved, and as it is such a powerful thing, man needed a way to link to love and through these, the mystical.
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:14 pm
psychadelephant Soulstrike96 Is religon just wishful thinking? What do you think? I personally don't think it's wishful thinking, but I can completely see how someone who hasn't personally witnessed a miracle or seen what God can do [or just hasn't noticed yet] can believe that. It's just a matter of faith vs. logic. Some parts of religion, like ANY religion don't seem all that logical sometimes but religion is more about how you feel in your heart. It bothers me when some people are so set on trying to disprove eachothers beliefs [Christianity disproving atheism visa-versa]. In other threads [not in this guild, but on different boards] I saw a lot of athiests trying to think of scientific explanations for any miracles that anyone mentioned. That bothers me because it's like, no one is hurting you by being religious. If religion gives them a purpose and higher meaning etc. then what right do you have to take that away from them? I have a strict no-conversion policy. If someone is interested and wants to learn, rock on, but people's personal beliefs should be up to them. That is why, soulstrike96 my friend I really appreciate that you are asking questions and being so respectful. If you like the answers to your questions and decide to give your heart to God, great, but otherwise because of you actually wanting to know more about the faith, you at least have enough of a basis about it to have intelligent input when religion comes up in discussions. Well, I can see where you'd be annoyed at people trying to prove your beliefs wrong all the time. But what about the possibility of attributing the effect to the wrong cause? It kinda reminds me of the old superstitions in the way I touched on in my short rant up there. "A black cat crossed his path during a morning walk and sure enough he was in a car accident." It's easy to see the falsehood in such a statement as that, but as you know, it's easy to attribute actions to some abstract mystical force. No offense to any of you, but I see religion more or less as a giant, organized superstition in which the inconsistencies are harder to see than in my black cat example and are set up so that one can neither prove nor disprove it. Although it seems silly, but the black cat superstition is a perfect example. Can you prove that cats of the black variety DON'T have some juju hanging around them that bleeds out misfortune to those it encounters? Can you prove that is does? We can't, because it would have to operate under principles unknown to us outside the physical world we know. A world we have no way of knowing exists, much less explore... It's remniscient of the Salemn witch trials or the Spanish Inquisition in which people DID hurt others because of their religious beliefs. I have no problem with people trying to stand up and better themselves, even if the vector by which it happens is religion. What I don't really like is the way some people go about getting try to 'rid the world of that which is bad or evil'. Or even what some of 'em consider to be bad or evil. In a way, religion can put a fog around one's mind when it comes to understanding what others believe in the same way it can put into them a new perspective on the way they deal and treat with others. As to prophesies, I can only note the vague nature of all prophesies and the many ways to interpret them... it is AN explanation, and who knows whether or not any explanation anyone has come up with is THE explanation. Ahh... truth and knowledge are such difficult concepts... Edit: I appreciate the fact that you've noticed the way in which I pose questions to you about your faith, although they are more often to elicit thought and discussion than they are to actually learn something new (which isn't to say that I haven't learned from you guys.) I have to wonder who's heart said hating gays or the act of homosexuality was the will of god...
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:31 pm
Quote: Have you even read some of the mythological stories? How can you find that more believable than what Christians believe? Believability is a matter of opinion, one that is often directly related to the context in which one grew up in. For example... the way that extremist muslims kill and die so readily for their ideas of righteous action and them 70 virgins in the afterlife. (I often ask to myself where all these virgins for all of these men who already have wives on earth would come from... would god just snap his fingers and make them from scratch for them? Beings less than human for all their apparent biological sameness? Or would he alter the wills and characters of deceased virgins for them? Truly, a puzzling belief to say the least...) If you'll remember my black cat example, it is silly at first, but upon closer examination can be relegated to as much serious consideration for truth as any other religion. It is for this fickle nature of truth that many of us can claim as reasons to turn into atheists or agnostics, especially in dealings of 'wrong' or 'right.' We use wrong and right (good/bad) so often, we take for granted how intangible such things really are. Such is another reason we're leery of religions. Maybe now you'll have a bit of insight that may help you understand us, or me at least. Even if you don't believe as I do, it may help foster more respect and understanding for the people such as I, or even for others who are not.
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:52 pm
Soulstrike96 Well, I can see where you'd be annoyed at people trying to prove your beliefs wrong all the time. But what about the possibility of attributing the effect to the wrong cause? It kinda reminds me of the old superstitions in the way I touched on in my short rant up there. "A black cat crossed his path during a morning walk and sure enough he was in a car accident." It's easy to see the falsehood in such a statement as that, but as you know, it's easy to attribute actions to some abstract mystical force. No offense to any of you, but I see religion more or less as a giant, organized superstition in which the inconsistencies are harder to see than in my black cat example and are set up so that one can neither prove nor disprove it. Although it seems silly, but the black cat superstition is a perfect example. Can you prove that cats of the black variety DON'T have some juju hanging around them that bleeds out misfortune to those it encounters? Can you prove that is does? We can't, because it would have to operate under principles unknown to us outside the physical world we know. A world we have no way of knowing exists, much less explore... It's remniscient of the Salemn witch trials or the Spanish Inquisition in which people DID hurt others because of their religious beliefs. I have no problem with people trying to stand up and better themselves, even if the vector by which it happens is religion. What I don't really like is the way some people go about getting try to 'rid the world of that which is bad or evil'. Or even what some of 'em consider to be bad or evil. In a way, religion can put a fog around one's mind when it comes to understanding what others believe in the same way it can put into them a new perspective on the way they deal and treat with others. As to prophesies, I can only note the vague nature of all prophesies and the many ways to interpret them... it is AN explanation, and who knows whether or not any explanation anyone has come up with is THE explanation. Ahh... truth and knowledge are such difficult concepts... Edit: I appreciate the fact that you've noticed the way in which I pose questions to you about your faith, although they are more often to elicit thought and discussion than they are to actually learn something new (which isn't to say that I haven't learned from you guys.) I have to wonder who's heart said hating gays or the act of homosexuality was the will of god... Superstitions and stuff are all like completely reasonable. Everyone has the choice of what to believe in, and the thing about religion is that you usually can't prove it. Things like crusades, witch trials etc. are in my opinion taking their own personal beliefs and trying to mask them behind their faith. God would never approve of the killing of innocent people. For me personally, until I can find a part of the new testament that outright says homosexuality is wrong, I'm never going to hate on someone because of their sexual orientation. Actually, even if someone can show me a verse like that I'd still never hate on a gay person purely because they're gay. Jesus wouldn't so why should any of us?
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:34 pm
psychadelephant Soulstrike96 Well, I can see where you'd be annoyed at people trying to prove your beliefs wrong all the time. But what about the possibility of attributing the effect to the wrong cause? It kinda reminds me of the old superstitions in the way I touched on in my short rant up there. "A black cat crossed his path during a morning walk and sure enough he was in a car accident." It's easy to see the falsehood in such a statement as that, but as you know, it's easy to attribute actions to some abstract mystical force. No offense to any of you, but I see religion more or less as a giant, organized superstition in which the inconsistencies are harder to see than in my black cat example and are set up so that one can neither prove nor disprove it. Although it seems silly, but the black cat superstition is a perfect example. Can you prove that cats of the black variety DON'T have some juju hanging around them that bleeds out misfortune to those it encounters? Can you prove that is does? We can't, because it would have to operate under principles unknown to us outside the physical world we know. A world we have no way of knowing exists, much less explore... It's remniscient of the Salemn witch trials or the Spanish Inquisition in which people DID hurt others because of their religious beliefs. I have no problem with people trying to stand up and better themselves, even if the vector by which it happens is religion. What I don't really like is the way some people go about getting try to 'rid the world of that which is bad or evil'. Or even what some of 'em consider to be bad or evil. In a way, religion can put a fog around one's mind when it comes to understanding what others believe in the same way it can put into them a new perspective on the way they deal and treat with others. As to prophesies, I can only note the vague nature of all prophesies and the many ways to interpret them... it is AN explanation, and who knows whether or not any explanation anyone has come up with is THE explanation. Ahh... truth and knowledge are such difficult concepts... Edit: I appreciate the fact that you've noticed the way in which I pose questions to you about your faith, although they are more often to elicit thought and discussion than they are to actually learn something new (which isn't to say that I haven't learned from you guys.) I have to wonder who's heart said hating gays or the act of homosexuality was the will of god... Superstitions and stuff are all like completely reasonable. Everyone has the choice of what to believe in, and the thing about religion is that you usually can't prove it. Things like crusades, witch trials etc. are in my opinion taking their own personal beliefs and trying to mask them behind their faith. God would never approve of the killing of innocent people. For me personally, until I can find a part of the new testament that outright says homosexuality is wrong, I'm never going to hate on someone because of their sexual orientation. Actually, even if someone can show me a verse like that I'd still never hate on a gay person purely because they're gay. Jesus wouldn't so why should any of us? I'm glad you feel the exact same way I do then. 3nodding I've little doubt the whole Iraq and Al Qaeda stuff isn't exactly the way you said. Taking their own personal beliefs and trying to mask them behind their faith, although with their faith, it isn't much of a stretch...
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:28 pm
Quote: God would never approve of the killing of innocent people. *cough*Deuteronomy*cough* Quote: Jesus wouldn't so why should any of us? How do you know? With all due respect, the bible only says good things about Jesus which seems a little biased to me. For all you know, Jesus could've been a really mean person but it was either never put in the bible or the story was manipulated to make Jesus look good.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:13 pm
The Kaptain Quote: God would never approve of the killing of innocent people. *cough*Deuteronomy*cough* Quote: Jesus wouldn't so why should any of us? How do you know? With all due respect, the bible only says good things about Jesus which seems a little biased to me. For all you know, Jesus could've been a really mean person but it was either never put in the bible or the story was manipulated to make Jesus look good. True, but why then would his followers work so hard for Him and even die for Him is all He was was an awful person?
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:22 pm
Riviera de la Mancha The Kaptain Quote: God would never approve of the killing of innocent people. *cough*Deuteronomy*cough* Quote: Jesus wouldn't so why should any of us? How do you know? With all due respect, the bible only says good things about Jesus which seems a little biased to me. For all you know, Jesus could've been a really mean person but it was either never put in the bible or the story was manipulated to make Jesus look good. True, but why then would his followers work so hard for Him and even die for Him is all He was was an awful person? People can be very easily deceived. Plus, the only source people act upon when learning about Jesus are in the bible. If people work hard for him/die for him in the bible, that can be part of the bias.
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