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 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:50 am
i like burnination that, my friend, is a troublesome bug i like to call "apathy". to me, witnessing is like telling someone to put on a parachute because the airplane they're in is going to crash. would you not offer a parachute someone simply because they think the airplane will not crash? an evangelist by the name of Ray Comfort once received a letter from a hardcore atheist attacking him, simply because he was not doing all he could to reach the unsaved, which to the atheist meant that Comfort did not truly believe his faith was real. and why should we stop at just telling people who've never heard the Gospel? to use my airplane analogy again, why should we only tell people who've never heard of parachutes? You don't seem to be quite understanding what I'm saying. So I shall have at it again. I shall try to appeal to your analogy, it will require an open mind, but I shall try anyways. Just because you believe the airplane is going down, that doesn't necessarily mean the plane is going down. Other passengers may believe that the plane is fine, and that you're wrong (this is the part where you have to have an open mind). There is no way for you to prove that the plane is going down (lets say the windows are closed) but you felt some great shaking. But the other passengers believe it's just turbulence. So you start handing out parachutes, but the other passengers may not want your parachute. They're heavy, uncomfortable, and a burden to carry around. So maybe some people tell you no, or some people will accept one, but just set it aside, or some people strap up like you. But you still going around, pestering them to put their parachutes on, and they keep telling you to take yours off, and sit down, and stop causing a ruckus. You could keep arguing, and bothering them to put their parachutes on, or they could get up, and start telling everyone wearing parachutes to take them off and settle down. But the point is, you do not know who is right. Now, (this requires more openmindedness) there is someone who just woke up on this plane because of the great shaking you had felt. They had no idea they had been dragged onto this plane. They are confused, so you offer them your explanation of a plane, and what is happening. And so they either a) believe you and accept your parachute or b) decide that the plane is flying just fine, thank you for you help, and join the sitting people. One of my favorite examples is the Jehovah's witnesses that always walk up to my house. I understand and appreciate their concern for my soul, but I do not believe what they believe. And I grow distaste having to repeat that I do not believe what they believe. And I feel that they're imposing upon me with dedicated closed minds, and I'd much prefer to be left alone. i like burnination PirateEire You aren't right simply because you believe you're right. It is pretentious to go around claiming that you are, and all non-Christians are wrong. What's right for you may not be right for them. must i say it again? i'm not using my zealousness for my faith as a defense for Christianity, because then what makes me different from the lunatic in the mental ward who believes the whole world is out to get him? very little, i'd say. i was simply stating that i know my belief to be right, NOT (emphasis being on "not") using it in an apologetic sense, that is, as an "appeal to belief". and basically, i don't subscribe to the idea of relativism, moral or otherwise, except of course in matters of opinion, such as whether or not it's a nice day outside. Clearly there is some misunderstanding here. Either you've proven the existence of God, and that you know exactly what He wants, or you haven't and don't, and you have faith that you do. You once again have claimed to be right, when remember, the windows are closed, and you can't prove the plane is going down. EDIT: I just remembered you implied I was apathetic. I beg to differ. I just so choose to express my passion through actions, and the way I live my life, to try and be the best example of what I believe to be a good Christian man.
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:05 am
Spartan1989 I love you! You seem to have a very good understanding of the scriptures point even being atheist. I understand exactly what you are saying. But, It is written in the Bible that preaching is a duty of ours. And this is not saying that we are to go around and to tell people they are wrong but we are to try to share the good news with the world around us like the Apostles did. If we do get into a Debate with someone what we should say when they ask us questions is "what I believe....Etc." and then we can give evidence to support our claim. We should never us the words when someone makes a statement of what they belive, No or wrong. WE just should continue to listen to the person no matter how wrong we truly believe them to be in our heart. Like they could say something like "Joseph stalin was the messiah." and have no proof and we are to say " well I believe Jesus was the messiah and this is why i believe so...etc And for the person who quoted dont go look for people to save, If this were so, Why Did Jesus say, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" in Mark 16:15? I believe if Christians had this point of view, We would be missing half the new Testament. If this were true the Apostles would have never preached to Rome and Corinth or any of the other nations and we wouldnt be sitting here discussing this. The quote was "Do not seek to save." Preach good news all you like, inform those who you believe need informing. If you recall, I encouraged informing the ignorant. By all means, seek to inform of the scriptures and the wondrous gift of salvation and love. But where in the Bible does it say to try to proselytize (still my new favorite word) people to your faith? Who's to say you're saving them with well placed faith or if you're just ignorantly leading them awry? You can't decide for someone else what is right. If they take the scriptures you sought to bring to them, and interpret them a different way than you did, and believe that their interpretation is right, who are you to tell them they are wrong? You didn't write them. You can't say for sure.
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:43 am
i like burnination that, my friend, is a troublesome bug i like to call "apathy". to me, witnessing is like telling someone to put on a parachute because the airplane they're in is going to crash. would you not offer a parachute someone simply because they think the airplane will not crash? an evangelist by the name of Ray Comfort once received a letter from a hardcore atheist attacking him, simply because he was not doing all he could to reach the unsaved, which to the atheist meant that Comfort did not truly believe his faith was real. and why should we stop at just telling people who've never heard the Gospel? to use my airplane analogy again, why should we only tell people who've never heard of parachutes? respecting anothers beliefs is Apathy? Wha? And I understand the Parachute Analogy, but what about the people who already know of Christianity and the Gospel, yet still don't believe? This thread was started concerning Secular Gaians who hate Christianity(Or other Religions), you can only inform one person about the existance of a Parachute so many times before they start to hate said Parachute. Besides, those of other faith already have a parachute, telling them that their Parachute doesn't work, and yours does, 'Cause I said So, doesn't work with too many people. Actually, I'd be surprised if it worked with anyone...
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:18 pm
Draycore EDIT: I just remembered you implied I was apathetic. I beg to differ. I just so choose to express my passion through actions, and the way I live my life, to try and be the best example of what I believe to be a good Christian man. Favorite Newsboys song, "Shine". 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:56 pm
And you all thought you had gotten rid of me.PirateEire The bickering is not going to stop, and proselytizing will only fuel the fire. There are forums that exist solely to debate on religion on Gaia, where proselytizing constantly is a banable offense. PirateEire I know of no non-Christians, personally, who have been moved by a speech enough to have their entire belief structure crumble, and reconstruct itself. PirateEire Note, that a lot of people simply do not believe in God, nor Jesus. Belief is not chosen. Proselytizing is about as useful as meandering into someone's yard-party barbeque type thing and preaching the evils of meat, as well as promoting vegatarianism. People's tastes will not just suddenly change. PirateEire If you want to proselytize, please refrain from doing so in the wrong forums, at the very least. Stay as far as possible from Extended Discussion, try to keep some distance from General Discussion, and have fun in the chatterbox.
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:55 am
Just thought I'd like to point out, you have seven times the amount of punctuation required at the end of the Thread Title. May want to fix it?
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:13 pm
Draycore But the point is, you do not know who is right. however, because i believe i'm right, wouldn't i do my best to keep everyone from a crashity death? i mean, it seems downright illogical to not. granted, i'm not constantly and repeatedly bugging the same people all the time. if someone rejects my offer, then i simply leave it up to God to, if He wills, soften their hearts towards salvation. like i said earlier, it's not me who changes a person's heart, but rather the Spirit of God. therefore, i believe that God can use anything to turn a person to Him, whether it be lifestyle evangelism, street witnessing, or a sunset. God is not dependent on a particular way of bringing people to Him. Draycore One of my favorite examples is the Jehovah's witnesses that always walk up to my house. I understand and appreciate their concern for my soul, but I do not believe what they believe. And I grow distaste having to repeat that I do not believe what they believe. And I feel that they're imposing upon me with dedicated closed minds, and I'd much prefer to be left alone. i tried to be open minded, but my brain fell out. Draycore Clearly there is some misunderstanding here. Either you've proven the existence of God, and that you know exactly what He wants, or you haven't and don't, and you have faith that you do. You once again have claimed to be right, when remember, the windows are closed, and you can't prove the plane is going down. so Christians are to be in a constant sense of unknowing as to whether our faith is right or not? it shouldn't be a blind faith in something that may or may not be right. the faith should produce a knowing that it is right. and for many Christians, it's not simply faith that has given them an assurance in their faith, but also research into the person of Christ and personal experiences (this is used as an example, not as proof that Christianity is right). Militant Christian respecting anothers beliefs is Apathy? Wha? well, if one's fear of offending a person rules over one's want to see that person saved, then yes, it is apathy, because even if one says "i'm don't want that person to be offended", it's more out of selfish desire to keep oneself looking good, rather than a genuine care for that person's feelings. Militant Christian . . . you can only inform one person about the existance of a Parachute so many times before they start to hate said Parachute. Besides, those of other faith already have a parachute, telling them that their Parachute doesn't work, and yours does, 'Cause I said So, doesn't work with too many people. Actually, I'd be surprised if it worked with anyone... agreed.
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:26 pm
Se Ga Takai Just thought I'd like to point out, you have seven times the amount of punctuation required at the end of the Thread Title. May want to fix it? NO!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:16 am
PirateEire Se Ga Takai Just thought I'd like to point out, you have seven times the amount of punctuation required at the end of the Thread Title. May want to fix it? NO!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??! wow, that's so many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:36 pm
i like burnination so Christians are to be in a constant sense of unknowing as to whether our faith is right or not? it shouldn't be a blind faith in something that may or may not be right. the faith should produce a knowing that it is right. and for many Christians, it's not simply faith that has given them an assurance in their faith, but also research into the person of Christ and personal experiences (this is used as an example, not as proof that Christianity is right). faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith. 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles. 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved. —Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad. Thank you, dictionary.com! Anyway, I'd just like to say that, as a Christian, I have no problem believing in Christ, until somone starts to try to prove that our religion is the right one, because it brings a 'counter-question' to my mind for every answer. I also find it to be insulting. Also, one of my church's pastors keeps trying to push doctrine at me that I just simply don't believe in. Because he does this to me, it just makes me listen to him less, because he doesn't have anything to say that pertains to me and my own doctrine. AND! Even my pastor knows that there is no 'perfect' church that believes in exactly what God meant when he was guiding the Bible's authors' hands. That means that, in the end, no one is entirely right. If I missed anything, I prolly didn't, but just implied what I meant instead of just saying it. xp
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:33 pm
doctrine, when it is called such, is usually that which is Biblically grounded and the majority of the denominations of Christianity agree upon. such things as free will or predestination are not necessarily doctrines, since neither extreme is completely true (not trying to start a discussion on this!), but rather one must find a balance which i believe is unattainable in this life. more to the point, however, Christianity does require one to take a leap of faith, but i believe that one can know that God is real and that they are saved from His wrath through the sacrifice Christ made on the cross, and not just be blindly following something without any idea of whether they have made the right choice or not. that is not Christianity. i do not believe that one can rightly pursue God without knowing that their beliefs are correct. as a man once shared with me, to know God, and truly know Him as one would know a friend but at the same time Him being so much more, is the goal of this life. if one knows God, then one will do His will, and all other things will fall into place. granted, most people in other religions believe that they are correct, and therefore simply knowing one's religion to be correct does not make it correct. but my point is rather that one does not have to make a blind leap of faith every time they pray to God, hoping that they are praying to the right one or that He is even there.
oh, and definitions 3, 5, and 8 of what you quoted agree with the point i am trying to make. 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:21 am
i like burnination Militant Christian respecting anothers beliefs is Apathy? Wha? well, if one's fear of offending a person rules over one's want to see that person saved, then yes, it is apathy, because even if one says "i'm don't want that person to be offended", it's more out of selfish desire to keep oneself looking good, rather than a genuine care for that person's feelings. I'm not altogether certain how to reply to this, the words aren't coming to me(sore muscles + lack of sleep - coffee = brain no work good gonk ). But you can Respect someones beliefs, and bring the Gospel to them, while still not proselytizing. I have been far more "successful"(that sounds like I'm selling something...errgh...) with others and my belief if I simply let them know what my beliefs are, and not trying to convince them to follow the same path. After awhile, if they like the kind of person I am, their hearts will grow softer towards Christ, and he will capably bring themselves to him in his own way, without it seeming like the faith needs to be force-fed. I think that makes sense sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:56 am
I've been busy lately. And of right now, I don't feel like debating. But I'll reply soon.
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