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| Was Lenin a Tyrant? |
| A brutal despot |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| An enlightened dictator |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| A visionary man who made hard but necessary choices |
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84% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:50 pm
Phantom Stranger PhyscoRedFerret Actually I believe Stalin participated in the Revolution, he won a battle at a small town which he renamed Stalingrad in honor of his Victory, it was this battle that gave Stalin his Confidence in his Military skills, ironically it was at the same place did he finally learn he wan't a brilliant military leader and let Marshal Zhukov Command the Stalingrad Encirclment Stalin didn't kill his people needlessly, he sent them to labour camps to get all the work out of them and only killed if they tried to run away Stalin exiled Trotsky to Siberia, where he fled to Mexico to protest Stalin's dictatorship OF the people, and was later mysteriously assassinated... Sounds pretty needless to me. Communism is about crushing opposing ideology, and it most certainly wasn't about killing other communist (menshevik or otherwise) for holding different beliefs. I didn't say he was justified in killing, he just didn't sent masses of peple into gas chambers. He just hated Trotsky for some personal reasons, it was more of a revenge
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:19 pm
PhyscoRedFerret I didn't say he was justified in killing, he just didn't sent masses of peple into gas chambers. He just hated Trotsky for some personal reasons, it was more of a revenge Oh, sorry then.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:51 am
PhyscoRedFerret I didn't say he was justified in killing, he just didn't sent masses of peple into gas chambers. He just hated Trotsky for some personal reasons, it was more of a revenge No, he just sent millions to labour camps in Siberia and worked them to death instead. rolleyes I bet perma-frost made for a lovely site to die.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:23 am
Phantom Stranger Evan DeVill Well Lenin ordered the executions of a lot of people. True. But there was war. As the chairman he is responsible for what his troops do. Just as Washington and Lincoln are responsible for thousands of dead civilians. I don't really get your point to say the truth. What kind of political leader is the one you prefer? Name some. As for Stalin, he was much more active in the Russian Revolution in terms of direct action than Lenin. The was a bomber and bankrobber who carried out a lot of missions. But what does that say about the person? Does that change him? Lenin was one of the first to invade the Winter Palace, while Stalin was eating with friends miles away... Lenin sounded pretty active to me, but he was more of a political dude, whereas Stalin was definitely more of a military pinko. Yeah, but he was terrible at leading a military; he showed that in WW2, and had to have more faith in his generals. The fighting with the Nazis reached as far as the outskirts of Moscow.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:49 am
-Blind Guardian- PhyscoRedFerret I didn't say he was justified in killing, he just didn't sent masses of peple into gas chambers. He just hated Trotsky for some personal reasons, it was more of a revenge No, he just sent millions to labour camps in Siberia and worked them to death instead. rolleyes I bet perma-frost made for a lovely site to die. And what about the old woman who said when she was a girl they gathered up the children of her village inside the Gulog and gave them salted fish, which they ate cause they didn't know they'd let them dehydrate. Might have been lying but, meh.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:47 am
-Blind Guardian- PhyscoRedFerret I didn't say he was justified in killing, he just didn't sent masses of peple into gas chambers. He just hated Trotsky for some personal reasons, it was more of a revenge No, he just sent millions to labour camps in Siberia and worked them to death instead. rolleyes I bet perma-frost made for a lovely site to die. Yes, but he didn't order there deaths completely intentionally. If they survived there term there free which were about 20% of the people there.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:23 pm
PhyscoRedFerret Yes, but he didn't order there deaths completely intentionally. If they survived there term there free which were about 20% of the people there. 20% of a few million is nothing to be proud about. The truth is, he sent people to Gulags without the intention of releasing them. He expected them to die and have to have their place filled by others. The worst thing is, most of the people there probably weren't even actual criminals.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:38 pm
I take it this is where the "A single death is a tradegy; a million deaths is a statistic" came about then...
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:58 pm
There can never be any excuse for the crimes Stalin comminted. To put it simply he was ruthless pragmatism personified. Plus he was as paranoid as hell, which didn't help either. Nor did having the means and the population at his disposal to make him capable of doing what he did. In terms of worst despots of the 20th Century, he squeezes in behind Hitler. Despite killing more people, his form of genocide was the less discrimitory one. Hitler wanted to wipe out the Jews, Stalin just killed people who looked at him funny. Back to the topic of Lenin however, and the results of my little poll do not really surprise me in the slightest considering the placement it is in. Perhaps if I put it in the main politics forum, then the results would be slightly more different. If however, I put it here, then I guess the results will be extremely skewed to the despotic end of the scale. No, this is not a conservative forum at all, just for your interest. However, despite your comments on Lenin, I still feel that he had no real right to go and do the things he did. The arguements that he was better than the Tsar, and that they were at war do not really hold water. Nothing excuses the total removal of democratic rights nor the imposition of a ruthless secret police. For a full insight into the events of 1917-24, I really do reccomend this book.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:49 pm
Quote: Nothing excuses the total removal of democratic rights Even though many people were more free than they'd ever been under Lenin, especially women? Oh, and I'm studying Lenin and Stalin's Russia for History A-Level at the moment, but Lenin was indeed the lesser of two evils with a communist idea that could perhaps work....it wasn't Marxism but it still might have had a chance. As I said before, I don't condone a secret police, but war is war. The death of the few in sake of the many.....is sometimes something that has to be done.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:05 pm
Lenin is taken out of context by even communist, i think we should know as much about the man before we disscuss him.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:35 pm
Sibil Phantom Stranger Lenin was one of the first to invade the Winter Palace, while Stalin was eating with friends miles away... Lenin sounded pretty active to me, but he was more of a political dude, whereas Stalin was definitely more of a military pinko. Yeah, but he was terrible at leading a military; he showed that in WW2, and had to have more faith in his generals. The fighting with the Nazis reached as far as the outskirts of Moscow. Yeah, because he killed off all the military leaders (generals and such)... 'Cause he was freakin' crazy; total paranoia... I never said I liked Stalin, I was just saying he was very militaristic (good at it or not).
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:38 pm
Barciad ...No, this is not a conservative forum at all, just for your interest. However, despite your comments on Lenin, I still feel that he had no real right to go and do the things he did. The arguements that he was better than the Tsar, and that they were at war do not really hold water. Nothing excuses the total removal of democratic rights nor the imposition of a ruthless secret police. For a full insight into the events of 1917-24, I really do reccomend this book.He did have several strokes, and I was told those close to him said he had a sevre swing in his personality afterward, though those may just be rumors... I'm not sure. All I know is that semi-democratic insitutions within the party were a hell of a lot better than dictatorial Tsars...
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:09 am
I don't think you properly read my post when I stated, quite clearly not to compare him with what had gone before. Of course he was better than the Tsar, that never was, nor is in any doubt (although I bet plenty of conservatives will try and argue otherwise, but that is not the point).
The point remains that when you start condoning the removal of democratic rights due to a state of war, crisis, real or imagined, then you are on a very slippery slope indeed.
May I remind you all of the a certian Texan and his current ambitions regarding the rights of American citizens so as to put the whole issue into some kind of perspective.
Yes, the newly formed USSR was under attack from all sides ("To strangle it at birth" said the staunchly anti-Communist Winston Churchill), but "he who puts his securoty over his liberty quite frankly deserves neither". Now I can't remember for the love of anything who said that, I think it was Jefferson, but I cannot be sure.
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:55 am
It was the racist and sexist Franklin who said that. He was all right against the brits but di nothing for the woman or the slaves. You still owe me the politicians you want compare Lenin to. You said he was better than the Tzar. But whom do you want him compared to?
Than there is your poll...well what do you expect if you give these choices...Lenin is A) Evil B) Evil or C) Moderatly Evil? May I ask your age?
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