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 Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:19 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine So if worship means to give extreme reverence to God, wouldn't shouting halleujah(sp?), playing loud music in Church, shouting, raising your hands be considered irreverent? The Holy Ghost speaks to us in a small still voice, how can you hear Him speak to you if you are singing loudly and waving your hands all over? You have to remember it depends on the denomination. My church does a lot of that hand waving, dancing, and praising jazz, and visiting speakers usually remark on how close our church seems to the Lord. The time I felt the Lord's presence most was when I was last dancing. The Mormon definition doesn't really seem to apply. That's not the Mormon definition of Worship. That's what worship truly is. I just pulled that quote from a book. How can you know you felt the Spirit while dancing? Are you sure it wasn't some adrenaline rush? (I'm not denying you personal experience...I'm just asking questions) Because every one I know, protestants included, have never truly felt the spirit unless they were still, silent, and in prayer. It came from a Mormon book, therefore it is a Mormon definition. wink And how can you know that the Lord is speaking to you, and it's not your own thoughts? The way I knew was He showed me how the universe, all the natural world, and we Christians too were engaged in worshipping Him. My dancing for Him was a small part of a great universe of worship Him. I think He wants our hearts more then our reverence. And don't I count as part of everyone? You saying that is kinda like me saying everyone I know understands the Trinity to be a central teaching of Christianity. And you gotta remember there's a time for peace and 'reverence', and a time for joy. You have to balence the two and let Him show you the good sides to both. And just one more thing: both John Eldredge and CS Lewis have both called our Lord a 'Wild God'. He created this whole wild world remember. It's probrably a bit like nature: you have beautiful peaceful places, and you have other wild, exciting places. He has more then one side to Him, don't you see? How are the teachings of Mormonism any different than Christianity? Being that Mormons are Christians too. Never said you don't count as part of every one and I'm not saying dancing is a bad thing either, whether it be for God or some one else. The point I am trying to make is that reverence is required for worshipping God. He wants us to follow Christ's example. Christ was not loud and boisterous. He was meek, humble and reverent when He approached His Father in heaven. That is how we should be too, whether we are singing in Church or just sitting at home. And one can be joyous and still be reverent about it, especially when you are in the house of the Lord. You can be loud and boisterous outside the house of the Lord (Church, temple, etc.) but when inside one must be peaceful and still. One must also be reverant in that manner while approaching Heavenly Father in prayer. And do you really want to go into a debate about the trinity theory?
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:30 pm
Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine So if worship means to give extreme reverence to God, wouldn't shouting halleujah(sp?), playing loud music in Church, shouting, raising your hands be considered irreverent? The Holy Ghost speaks to us in a small still voice, how can you hear Him speak to you if you are singing loudly and waving your hands all over? You have to remember it depends on the denomination. My church does a lot of that hand waving, dancing, and praising jazz, and visiting speakers usually remark on how close our church seems to the Lord. The time I felt the Lord's presence most was when I was last dancing. The Mormon definition doesn't really seem to apply. That's not the Mormon definition of Worship. That's what worship truly is. I just pulled that quote from a book. How can you know you felt the Spirit while dancing? Are you sure it wasn't some adrenaline rush? (I'm not denying you personal experience...I'm just asking questions) Because every one I know, protestants included, have never truly felt the spirit unless they were still, silent, and in prayer. It came from a Mormon book, therefore it is a Mormon definition. wink And how can you know that the Lord is speaking to you, and it's not your own thoughts? The way I knew was He showed me how the universe, all the natural world, and we Christians too were engaged in worshipping Him. My dancing for Him was a small part of a great universe of worship Him. I think He wants our hearts more then our reverence. And don't I count as part of everyone? You saying that is kinda like me saying everyone I know understands the Trinity to be a central teaching of Christianity. And you gotta remember there's a time for peace and 'reverence', and a time for joy. You have to balence the two and let Him show you the good sides to both. And just one more thing: both John Eldredge and CS Lewis have both called our Lord a 'Wild God'. He created this whole wild world remember. It's probrably a bit like nature: you have beautiful peaceful places, and you have other wild, exciting places. He has more then one side to Him, don't you see? How are the teachings of Mormonism any different than Christianity? Being that Mormons are Christians too. Never said you don't count as part of every one and I'm not saying dancing is a bad thing either, whether it be for God or some one else. The point I am trying to make is that reverence is required for worshipping God. He wants us to follow Christ's example. Christ was not loud and boisterous. He was meek, humble and reverent when He approached His Father in heaven. That is how we should be too, whether we are singing in Church or just sitting at home. And one can be joyous and still be reverent about it, especially when you are in the house of the Lord. You can be loud and boisterous outside the house of the Lord (Church, temple, etc.) but when inside one must be peaceful and still. One must also be reverant in that manner while approaching Heavenly Father in prayer. And do you really want to go into a debate about the trinity theory? The trinity teaching, and in a few other ways as well. Some (including my mom) say you aren't Christians because you don't view Jesus as the Lord. I don't really know enough to hold an opinion or to argue about it. I just know my church views worship differently then yours does, so you should probrably respect that. And as for biblical examples, Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine, he hung out with prostitues and fishermen, and he disrespected the religious leaders, and King David created songs for the Lord, and danced for Him. The Lord was angry at the women for laughing when his robes flew up, rather then at David for dancing. And Miriam danced too. The point I'm trying to make is that while we should be awed by the Lord, that doesn't mean dancing isn't a form of worship, or that you can't dance reverently. The purpose of worship is to praise Him. You're killing it by saying one form is okay and another is not (especially when the Bible itself doesn't exclude dancing. You know one of the cultures that parties hardest are God's people, the Jews?), and for no real reason I can discern. Love is the most important thing, not reverence. And no, not particularely. I'm just pointing out that this is something not 'everyone' you know knows, and that this may be a point we have to agree to disagree on.
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:20 pm
quietstorm 2 Someoneiknow definition of sanctuary: 1. a. A sacred place, such as a church, temple, or mosque. b. The holiest part of a sacred place, as the part of a Christian church around the altar. 2. a. A sacred place, such as a church, in which fugitives formerly were immune to arrest. b. Immunity to arrest afforded by a sanctuary. 3. A place of refuge or asylum. definition of chapel: a. A place of worship that is smaller than and subordinate to a church. b. A place of worship in an institution, such as a prison, college, or hospital. c. A recess or room in a church set apart for special or small services. d. A place of worship for those not belonging to an established church. e. The services held at a chapel: Students attend chapel each morning. definition of worship: a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object To me personally, I cannot feel reverence towards my Heavenly Father when people are prancing around shouting and making a big show of how much they "love" their Heavenly Father. To me, that is irreverent. When we are in Holy places, are we to act like how the world is, by having a large rock band, shouting at the top of our lungs, trying to make a show, or should be humble, soft and contrite? Was Jesus Himself, the Master of our souls, loud, boisterous, and often annoying? Or was He soft, humble, and asked simply from us? I respect EVERYONE's pesonal feelings concerning the quietness in worship and prayer. I don't paticular care for the loud rock bands either, but if thats what it takes for them and it pleases GOD then thats a good thing. Personally I believe I can receive GOD any way he present himself and I'll reverence him. When his Spirit is present in a crowd I enjoy the spirit, still being aware of whats around me but not allowing the noise to stop his flow within me, but thats just how hungry I am for His presence. So far I've been able to avoid anything that would block it and it's been good for me, Just as He's been good to me. I don't deny what you say, I just feel that no one really feels the Spirit when they are at a loud, raucous music event. They feel the moment, but not the Spirit. It's excitement, it's fun, it's joy, and it's noisy. I don't feel the Spirit can dwell in such a place, not because it doesn't have the capacity to, because the Spirit can be anywhere, but because the people aren't receptive to feel the Spirit. They are too caught up within themselves and the excitement to feel the Spirit. I also do not agree with using your main sanctuary, chapel, what have you, for your loud, boisterous time. It's where God is supposed to dwell, not a music festival arena. You should be reverent in those holy places, not desecrating them with noisy cherades and renditions of some past band.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:56 am
Shadows-shine LordTalisEraphen well im guessing theres different forms of worship.. remember david danced almost naked in front of the ark for God , his wife Michale got pretty ticked off for it .. and because she was so mad she was cursed to never have children again Could you cite the verse where this is at, please? sure! 2 samuel 6 its a private interpretation on the half naked part im going by "Wesley on that one" but yes he danced
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:59 am
xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine So if worship means to give extreme reverence to God, wouldn't shouting halleujah(sp?), playing loud music in Church, shouting, raising your hands be considered irreverent? The Holy Ghost speaks to us in a small still voice, how can you hear Him speak to you if you are singing loudly and waving your hands all over? You have to remember it depends on the denomination. My church does a lot of that hand waving, dancing, and praising jazz, and visiting speakers usually remark on how close our church seems to the Lord. The time I felt the Lord's presence most was when I was last dancing. The Mormon definition doesn't really seem to apply. That's not the Mormon definition of Worship. That's what worship truly is. I just pulled that quote from a book. How can you know you felt the Spirit while dancing? Are you sure it wasn't some adrenaline rush? (I'm not denying you personal experience...I'm just asking questions) Because every one I know, protestants included, have never truly felt the spirit unless they were still, silent, and in prayer. It came from a Mormon book, therefore it is a Mormon definition. wink And how can you know that the Lord is speaking to you, and it's not your own thoughts? The way I knew was He showed me how the universe, all the natural world, and we Christians too were engaged in worshipping Him. My dancing for Him was a small part of a great universe of worship Him. I think He wants our hearts more then our reverence. And don't I count as part of everyone? You saying that is kinda like me saying everyone I know understands the Trinity to be a central teaching of Christianity. And you gotta remember there's a time for peace and 'reverence', and a time for joy. You have to balence the two and let Him show you the good sides to both. And just one more thing: both John Eldredge and CS Lewis have both called our Lord a 'Wild God'. He created this whole wild world remember. It's probrably a bit like nature: you have beautiful peaceful places, and you have other wild, exciting places. He has more then one side to Him, don't you see? How are the teachings of Mormonism any different than Christianity? Being that Mormons are Christians too. Never said you don't count as part of every one and I'm not saying dancing is a bad thing either, whether it be for God or some one else. The point I am trying to make is that reverence is required for worshipping God. He wants us to follow Christ's example. Christ was not loud and boisterous. He was meek, humble and reverent when He approached His Father in heaven. That is how we should be too, whether we are singing in Church or just sitting at home. And one can be joyous and still be reverent about it, especially when you are in the house of the Lord. You can be loud and boisterous outside the house of the Lord (Church, temple, etc.) but when inside one must be peaceful and still. One must also be reverant in that manner while approaching Heavenly Father in prayer. And do you really want to go into a debate about the trinity theory? The trinity teaching, and in a few other ways as well. Some (including my mom) say you aren't Christians because you don't view Jesus as the Lord. I don't really know enough to hold an opinion or to argue about it. I just know my church views worship differently then yours does, so you should probrably respect that. And as for biblical examples, Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine, he hung out with prostitues and fishermen, and he disrespected the religious leaders, and King David created songs for the Lord, and danced for Him. The Lord was angry at the women for laughing when his robes flew up, rather then at David for dancing. And Miriam danced too. The point I'm trying to make is that while we should be awed by the Lord, that doesn't mean dancing isn't a form of worship, or that you can't dance reverently. The purpose of worship is to praise Him. You're killing it by saying one form is okay and another is not (especially when the Bible itself doesn't exclude dancing. You know one of the cultures that parties hardest are God's people, the Jews?), and for no real reason I can discern. Love is the most important thing, not reverence. And no, not particularely. I'm just pointing out that this is something not 'everyone' you know knows, and that this may be a point we have to agree to disagree on. Okay, well let me tell you that the L.D.S. Church does view Jesus as the Lord because that's who He is. We don't view Him as God, because that is who Heavenly Father is. They are not the same being. And the bible never teaches that one has to accept the trinity theory to be Christian. I know it says that you have to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then you'll be Christian, nothing about the trinity theory though. The trinity theory isn't backed biblically, and if you really want me to I can cite those references along with the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible that also don't support the trinity. The theory came forth due a compromise of the early Church fathers after the death of the original apostles because they couldn't describe what the Godhead was or tell what the nature of God and Jesus was. And just because I don't agree with your form of worship doesn't mean that I don't respect your beliefs. Disagreeing=/=disrespecting. I'm not saying you can't dance for the Lord, but it's not reverent to do so in a Church where you're wanting the Holy Spirit to come dwell. I've seen people dance for the Lord, but it was never in a Church or holy place, it was always out side or some where else. Dancing is an art and should be reserved for places where it's appropriate, and I don't feel the Chapel of a Church is the appropriate place for such an act. Of course the purpose of worship is to praise God, but He wants reverence from His children. You can give love and be reverent about it too.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:00 am
LordTalisEraphen Shadows-shine LordTalisEraphen well im guessing theres different forms of worship.. remember david danced almost naked in front of the ark for God , his wife Michale got pretty ticked off for it .. and because she was so mad she was cursed to never have children again Could you cite the verse where this is at, please? sure! 2 samuel 6 its a private interpretation on the half naked part im going by "Wesley on that one" but yes he danced Thanks. I will read into it and get back to you.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:01 am
Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: Quote: Latter-day Saints recognize that there is a oneness of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, with their concept of the trinity, believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings but still (in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satisfactorily define) one God, and hence they call themselves "monotheistic." Yet they some times attempt to play word games, asserting that Latter-day Saints are "polytheistic" in their worship of those same three beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monotheists, and Latter-day Saints, polytheists since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity. Quote: The scriptures are replete with examples of the separate nature and substance of the Father and the Son. Consider the following: 1. God spoke form heaven while Christ was on the earth-Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28-30 2. God is a separate witness of Christ-John 5:36-37; 8:17-18 3. Christ was with God in the beginning-John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 6:38; 16:28: 17:3, 5, 24; 20:21; Ephesians 3:9; 1 John 4:14 4. Christ is God's Son-Mark 9:7; John 3:16; 9:35-37; 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31; Ephesians 3:14; Hebrews 1:6; 5:5 5. Christ prayed to His Father-Matt. 6:6-9; 26:39; 27:46; Luke 3:34; John 12:27-28; 16:26; 17:5-11 6. Christ is at the right hand of God-Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Peter 3:22; Rev. 3:21 7. The Father committed all judgement unto the Son-John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1 8. God annointed Jesus Christ-Acts 10:38; Hebrews 1:9 9. God honored, blessed, and glorified Christ- Matt. 12:18; John 5:26; 12:23; 17:1, 5, 24; Acts 3:13; 5:30-31; Philippians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:17-18 10. Jesus was raised up by God-Acts 5:30-31; 1 Peter 1:21 11. God and Jesus are plural(we, our, us)- Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 21-22 12. God sent Christ to atone for us-Mark 9:37; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:38; 7:28-29; 8:42; 12:44-45; 17:3-4, 6-10, 18, 25; 20:21; 1 John 4:14 13. Christ commanded us to pray to God in His name- Matthew 6:6, 9; Luke 11:2; Colossians 3:17; Hebrews 7:25-26 14. Christ spoke to His Father in Heaven- Matt. 6:9; 10:33; 16:17; Luke 11:2; John 14:12; 20:17 15. Only God knew the exact time of the end; Christ did not then know-Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32 16. God the Father is Christ's God- Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; 1 Peter 1:3 17. Christ's will and doctrine were separate from God's-Matt. 26:39-42; Luke 22:41-42; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 14:10 18. Christ did His Father's work, not His own-Luke 2:49-50; John 17:3-4 19. Christ came in His Father's name- John 5:43 20. Christ came from and returned to God-John 14:12; 16:27-28, 30; 1 Peter 3:21-22 21. The Father was greater than the Son- John 10:29; 14:28; 1 Cor. 15:28 22. We come to the Father only by the Son-John 14:6 23. Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father- 1 Cor. 15:24 24. Christ is mediator between God and man- 1 Timothy 2:5 Quote: Today some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity, even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof-text to support their trinitarian concept: "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate belief in a trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accuratlely translated, this verse should read "in Chirst the fulness of divinity dwells in bodily form" (see New International Version). Thus, the qualities of Godhood are manifest to us in Christ, but Christ is not God the Father. It is important to note that the word "trinity" does not appear any where in the Kind James bible nor any other reputable translation of the bible. The present trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term(Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9) and the preferred title in the LDS Church....but such usage denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept...The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity" seems to have originated under the influence of Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:42 pm
E.G. 007 Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: Quote: Latter-day Saints recognize that there is a oneness of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, with their concept of the trinity, believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings but still (in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satisfactorily define) one God, and hence they call themselves "monotheistic." Yet they some times attempt to play word games, asserting that Latter-day Saints are "polytheistic" in their worship of those same three beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monotheists, and Latter-day Saints, polytheists since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity. Quote: The scriptures are replete with examples of the separate nature and substance of the Father and the Son. Consider the following: 1. God spoke form heaven while Christ was on the earth-Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28-30 2. God is a separate witness of Christ-John 5:36-37; 8:17-18 3. Christ was with God in the beginning-John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 6:38; 16:28: 17:3, 5, 24; 20:21; Ephesians 3:9; 1 John 4:14 4. Christ is God's Son-Mark 9:7; John 3:16; 9:35-37; 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31; Ephesians 3:14; Hebrews 1:6; 5:5 5. Christ prayed to His Father-Matt. 6:6-9; 26:39; 27:46; Luke 3:34; John 12:27-28; 16:26; 17:5-11 6. Christ is at the right hand of God-Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Peter 3:22; Rev. 3:21 7. The Father committed all judgement unto the Son-John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1 8. God annointed Jesus Christ-Acts 10:38; Hebrews 1:9 9. God honored, blessed, and glorified Christ- Matt. 12:18; John 5:26; 12:23; 17:1, 5, 24; Acts 3:13; 5:30-31; Philippians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:17-18 10. Jesus was raised up by God-Acts 5:30-31; 1 Peter 1:21 11. God and Jesus are plural(we, our, us)- Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 21-22 12. God sent Christ to atone for us-Mark 9:37; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:38; 7:28-29; 8:42; 12:44-45; 17:3-4, 6-10, 18, 25; 20:21; 1 John 4:14 13. Christ commanded us to pray to God in His name- Matthew 6:6, 9; Luke 11:2; Colossians 3:17; Hebrews 7:25-26 14. Christ spoke to His Father in Heaven- Matt. 6:9; 10:33; 16:17; Luke 11:2; John 14:12; 20:17 15. Only God knew the exact time of the end; Christ did not then know-Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32 16. God the Father is Christ's God- Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; 1 Peter 1:3 17. Christ's will and doctrine were separate from God's-Matt. 26:39-42; Luke 22:41-42; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 14:10 18. Christ did His Father's work, not His own-Luke 2:49-50; John 17:3-4 19. Christ came in His Father's name- John 5:43 20. Christ came from and returned to God-John 14:12; 16:27-28, 30; 1 Peter 3:21-22 21. The Father was greater than the Son- John 10:29; 14:28; 1 Cor. 15:28 22. We come to the Father only by the Son-John 14:6 23. Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father- 1 Cor. 15:24 24. Christ is mediator between God and man- 1 Timothy 2:5 Quote: Today some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity, even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof-text to support their trinitarian concept: "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate belief in a trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accuratlely translated, this verse should read "in Chirst the fulness of divinity dwells in bodily form" (see New International Version). Thus, the qualities of Godhood are manifest to us in Christ, but Christ is not God the Father. It is important to note that the word "trinity" does not appear any where in the Kind James bible nor any other reputable translation of the bible. The present trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term(Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9) and the preferred title in the LDS Church....but such usage denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept...The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity" seems to have originated under the influence of Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham @ EG I wasn't trying to start this argument, and I really don't want to get into it. And some of those verses can be interpreted to support the Trinity theory. I'm not gonna point them out because I don't want to fight about it, I'm just saying. And @Shadow, it says in the Bible 'make a joyful noise'. And I also want to say I don't think being reverent is the most important part of worship (I see more biblical backing for the way we evangelicals worship then for your reverent, passion-killing [the word's strong not because I want to insult you, but because I don't have a better term. I apologize in advance {please take no offense} for the strength, though I do think there's some truth to it] services.) I do feel the church is an appropriate place to dance, and that it's a little silly to think otherwise.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:22 pm
xxEternallyBluexx E.G. 007 Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: Quote: Latter-day Saints recognize that there is a oneness of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, with their concept of the trinity, believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings but still (in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satisfactorily define) one God, and hence they call themselves "monotheistic." Yet they some times attempt to play word games, asserting that Latter-day Saints are "polytheistic" in their worship of those same three beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monotheists, and Latter-day Saints, polytheists since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity. Quote: The scriptures are replete with examples of the separate nature and substance of the Father and the Son. Consider the following: 1. God spoke form heaven while Christ was on the earth-Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28-30 2. God is a separate witness of Christ-John 5:36-37; 8:17-18 3. Christ was with God in the beginning-John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 6:38; 16:28: 17:3, 5, 24; 20:21; Ephesians 3:9; 1 John 4:14 4. Christ is God's Son-Mark 9:7; John 3:16; 9:35-37; 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31; Ephesians 3:14; Hebrews 1:6; 5:5 5. Christ prayed to His Father-Matt. 6:6-9; 26:39; 27:46; Luke 3:34; John 12:27-28; 16:26; 17:5-11 6. Christ is at the right hand of God-Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Peter 3:22; Rev. 3:21 7. The Father committed all judgement unto the Son-John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1 8. God annointed Jesus Christ-Acts 10:38; Hebrews 1:9 9. God honored, blessed, and glorified Christ- Matt. 12:18; John 5:26; 12:23; 17:1, 5, 24; Acts 3:13; 5:30-31; Philippians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:17-18 10. Jesus was raised up by God-Acts 5:30-31; 1 Peter 1:21 11. God and Jesus are plural(we, our, us)- Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 21-22 12. God sent Christ to atone for us-Mark 9:37; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:38; 7:28-29; 8:42; 12:44-45; 17:3-4, 6-10, 18, 25; 20:21; 1 John 4:14 13. Christ commanded us to pray to God in His name- Matthew 6:6, 9; Luke 11:2; Colossians 3:17; Hebrews 7:25-26 14. Christ spoke to His Father in Heaven- Matt. 6:9; 10:33; 16:17; Luke 11:2; John 14:12; 20:17 15. Only God knew the exact time of the end; Christ did not then know-Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32 16. God the Father is Christ's God- Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; 1 Peter 1:3 17. Christ's will and doctrine were separate from God's-Matt. 26:39-42; Luke 22:41-42; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 14:10 18. Christ did His Father's work, not His own-Luke 2:49-50; John 17:3-4 19. Christ came in His Father's name- John 5:43 20. Christ came from and returned to God-John 14:12; 16:27-28, 30; 1 Peter 3:21-22 21. The Father was greater than the Son- John 10:29; 14:28; 1 Cor. 15:28 22. We come to the Father only by the Son-John 14:6 23. Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father- 1 Cor. 15:24 24. Christ is mediator between God and man- 1 Timothy 2:5 Quote: Today some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity, even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof-text to support their trinitarian concept: "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate belief in a trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accuratlely translated, this verse should read "in Chirst the fulness of divinity dwells in bodily form" (see New International Version). Thus, the qualities of Godhood are manifest to us in Christ, but Christ is not God the Father. It is important to note that the word "trinity" does not appear any where in the Kind James bible nor any other reputable translation of the bible. The present trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term(Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9) and the preferred title in the LDS Church....but such usage denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept...The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity" seems to have originated under the influence of Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham @ EG I wasn't trying to start this argument, and I really don't want to get into it. And some of those verses can be interpreted to support the Trinity theory. I'm not gonna point them out because I don't want to fight about it, I'm just saying. And @Shadow, it says in the Bible 'make a joyful noise'. And I also want to say I don't think being reverent is the most important part of worship (I see more biblical backing for the way we evangelicals worship then for your reverent, passion-killing [the word's strong not because I want to insult you, but because I don't have a better term. I apologize in advance {please take no offense} for the strength, though I do think there's some truth to it] services.) I do feel the church is an appropriate place to dance, and that it's a little silly to think otherwise. To respond about your deal on the trinity...if you read some of the translations from the Greek text..none of those verses will support the trinity. Have you ever attended a service at the LDS Church? A fast and testimony meeting for example? The Spirit of God is so strong there you can't help but cry. Upon entering in the temple and beginning the work to be performed within it's walls, the Spirit of God is stonger still. It's so beautiful and I cannot even describe it. I used to be protestant, and I will say from my own experience that I have never felt the Spirit so strong until I joined the LDS church. When I was a Protestant, I barely even tapped the surface of what the Gospel of Jesus had to offer me, but then I joined the LDS Church and found the fulness of the Gospel and now I will never go back because I know with out a doubt that I have the fulness of the truth and that the Church is true. As for the making a joyful noise unto God, that can be interpreted many different ways. Singing hymns, saying your prayers, bearing your testimony, and talking of the wonderful things that Heavenly Father has done in your life. Doesn't mean you have to shout and be loud to be joyful.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:30 pm
@ LordTalisEraphen- I read over the Chapter in 2 Samuel.
I never said dancing before the Lord was a bad thing, but there is a time and a place for and within the walls of a Church, Temple, etc. isn't the right place. David did dance for the Lord, but he was not in one of the above noted places. It was outside.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:58 pm
Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx E.G. 007 Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: Quote: Latter-day Saints recognize that there is a oneness of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, with their concept of the trinity, believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings but still (in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satisfactorily define) one God, and hence they call themselves "monotheistic." Yet they some times attempt to play word games, asserting that Latter-day Saints are "polytheistic" in their worship of those same three beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monotheists, and Latter-day Saints, polytheists since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity. Quote: The scriptures are replete with examples of the separate nature and substance of the Father and the Son. Consider the following: 1. God spoke form heaven while Christ was on the earth-Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28-30 2. God is a separate witness of Christ-John 5:36-37; 8:17-18 3. Christ was with God in the beginning-John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 6:38; 16:28: 17:3, 5, 24; 20:21; Ephesians 3:9; 1 John 4:14 4. Christ is God's Son-Mark 9:7; John 3:16; 9:35-37; 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31; Ephesians 3:14; Hebrews 1:6; 5:5 5. Christ prayed to His Father-Matt. 6:6-9; 26:39; 27:46; Luke 3:34; John 12:27-28; 16:26; 17:5-11 6. Christ is at the right hand of God-Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Peter 3:22; Rev. 3:21 7. The Father committed all judgement unto the Son-John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1 8. God annointed Jesus Christ-Acts 10:38; Hebrews 1:9 9. God honored, blessed, and glorified Christ- Matt. 12:18; John 5:26; 12:23; 17:1, 5, 24; Acts 3:13; 5:30-31; Philippians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:17-18 10. Jesus was raised up by God-Acts 5:30-31; 1 Peter 1:21 11. God and Jesus are plural(we, our, us)- Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 21-22 12. God sent Christ to atone for us-Mark 9:37; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:38; 7:28-29; 8:42; 12:44-45; 17:3-4, 6-10, 18, 25; 20:21; 1 John 4:14 13. Christ commanded us to pray to God in His name- Matthew 6:6, 9; Luke 11:2; Colossians 3:17; Hebrews 7:25-26 14. Christ spoke to His Father in Heaven- Matt. 6:9; 10:33; 16:17; Luke 11:2; John 14:12; 20:17 15. Only God knew the exact time of the end; Christ did not then know-Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32 16. God the Father is Christ's God- Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; 1 Peter 1:3 17. Christ's will and doctrine were separate from God's-Matt. 26:39-42; Luke 22:41-42; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 14:10 18. Christ did His Father's work, not His own-Luke 2:49-50; John 17:3-4 19. Christ came in His Father's name- John 5:43 20. Christ came from and returned to God-John 14:12; 16:27-28, 30; 1 Peter 3:21-22 21. The Father was greater than the Son- John 10:29; 14:28; 1 Cor. 15:28 22. We come to the Father only by the Son-John 14:6 23. Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father- 1 Cor. 15:24 24. Christ is mediator between God and man- 1 Timothy 2:5 Quote: Today some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity, even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof-text to support their trinitarian concept: "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate belief in a trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accuratlely translated, this verse should read "in Chirst the fulness of divinity dwells in bodily form" (see New International Version). Thus, the qualities of Godhood are manifest to us in Christ, but Christ is not God the Father. It is important to note that the word "trinity" does not appear any where in the Kind James bible nor any other reputable translation of the bible. The present trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term(Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9) and the preferred title in the LDS Church....but such usage denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept...The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity" seems to have originated under the influence of Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham @ EG I wasn't trying to start this argument, and I really don't want to get into it. And some of those verses can be interpreted to support the Trinity theory. I'm not gonna point them out because I don't want to fight about it, I'm just saying. And @Shadow, it says in the Bible 'make a joyful noise'. And I also want to say I don't think being reverent is the most important part of worship (I see more biblical backing for the way we evangelicals worship then for your reverent, passion-killing [the word's strong not because I want to insult you, but because I don't have a better term. I apologize in advance {please take no offense} for the strength, though I do think there's some truth to it] services.) I do feel the church is an appropriate place to dance, and that it's a little silly to think otherwise. To respond about your deal on the trinity...if you read some of the translations from the Greek text..none of those verses will support the trinity. Have you ever attended a service at the LDS Church? A fast and testimony meeting for example? The Spirit of God is so strong there you can't help but cry. Upon entering in the temple and beginning the work to be performed within it's walls, the Spirit of God is stonger still. It's so beautiful and I cannot even describe it. I used to be protestant, and I will say from my own experience that I have never felt the Spirit so strong until I joined the LDS church. When I was a Protestant, I barely even tapped the surface of what the Gospel of Jesus had to offer me, but then I joined the LDS Church and found the fulness of the Gospel and now I will never go back because I know with out a doubt that I have the fulness of the truth and that the Church is true. As for the making a joyful noise unto God, that can be interpreted many different ways. Singing hymns, saying your prayers, bearing your testimony, and talking of the wonderful things that Heavenly Father has done in your life. Doesn't mean you have to shout and be loud to be joyful. I live around the Great Lakes (and I love it here). I don't think there's any LDS churches around here and if there were, I doubt I'd attend. I really believe in what my church believes, and I have no desire to look at other congregations. And I could say the same for my church. I really doubt you'd walk out of there with the same feeling about the subject. And nothing in the Bible confirms what you're saying about dancing in Church being wrong. Besides the original churches were groups of people who gathered in Fellowship, without a building. Are you saying now that we use buildings to congregate, dancing in those buildings spoils it? (And it's not just about 'being loud' [though I see nothing wrong with that]. It's about praising Him.I think you're church misses out on some of the passion). Maybe we should drop the subject since it doesn't look like we'll come to agree. In this case, I think we're nitpicking.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:28 pm
Shadows-shine @ LordTalisEraphen- I read over the Chapter in 2 Samuel. I never said dancing before the Lord was a bad thing, but there is a time and a place for and within the walls of a Church, Temple, etc. isn't the right place. David did dance for the Lord, but he was not in one of the above noted places. It was outside. ah i see well i thought we were talking about worship in general... to me if you are wanting to be close to Christ praying with your brothers and sisters would be the best... -when 2 or more come together in my name i am there- but as far as church goes i will go out on a limb here and i hope i don't get shot but im not really a big fan of "Slain in the spirit " it scares me and i don't think "barking" in church is reverence... i have yet to see a example for it in the bible
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:51 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx E.G. 007 Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: Quote: Latter-day Saints recognize that there is a oneness of unity and purpose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (John 17:20-23). Evangelicals, with their concept of the trinity, believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings but still (in some manner which they are unable to "comprehend" or satisfactorily define) one God, and hence they call themselves "monotheistic." Yet they some times attempt to play word games, asserting that Latter-day Saints are "polytheistic" in their worship of those same three beings. It is hypocritical to call Protestants monotheists, and Latter-day Saints, polytheists since we worship the "Godhead" in the same manner they worship the trinity. Quote: The scriptures are replete with examples of the separate nature and substance of the Father and the Son. Consider the following: 1. God spoke form heaven while Christ was on the earth-Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28-30 2. God is a separate witness of Christ-John 5:36-37; 8:17-18 3. Christ was with God in the beginning-John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 6:38; 16:28: 17:3, 5, 24; 20:21; Ephesians 3:9; 1 John 4:14 4. Christ is God's Son-Mark 9:7; John 3:16; 9:35-37; 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31; Ephesians 3:14; Hebrews 1:6; 5:5 5. Christ prayed to His Father-Matt. 6:6-9; 26:39; 27:46; Luke 3:34; John 12:27-28; 16:26; 17:5-11 6. Christ is at the right hand of God-Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Peter 3:22; Rev. 3:21 7. The Father committed all judgement unto the Son-John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1 8. God annointed Jesus Christ-Acts 10:38; Hebrews 1:9 9. God honored, blessed, and glorified Christ- Matt. 12:18; John 5:26; 12:23; 17:1, 5, 24; Acts 3:13; 5:30-31; Philippians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:17-18 10. Jesus was raised up by God-Acts 5:30-31; 1 Peter 1:21 11. God and Jesus are plural(we, our, us)- Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 21-22 12. God sent Christ to atone for us-Mark 9:37; John 3:16; 5:24; 6:38; 7:28-29; 8:42; 12:44-45; 17:3-4, 6-10, 18, 25; 20:21; 1 John 4:14 13. Christ commanded us to pray to God in His name- Matthew 6:6, 9; Luke 11:2; Colossians 3:17; Hebrews 7:25-26 14. Christ spoke to His Father in Heaven- Matt. 6:9; 10:33; 16:17; Luke 11:2; John 14:12; 20:17 15. Only God knew the exact time of the end; Christ did not then know-Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32 16. God the Father is Christ's God- Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; 1 Peter 1:3 17. Christ's will and doctrine were separate from God's-Matt. 26:39-42; Luke 22:41-42; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 14:10 18. Christ did His Father's work, not His own-Luke 2:49-50; John 17:3-4 19. Christ came in His Father's name- John 5:43 20. Christ came from and returned to God-John 14:12; 16:27-28, 30; 1 Peter 3:21-22 21. The Father was greater than the Son- John 10:29; 14:28; 1 Cor. 15:28 22. We come to the Father only by the Son-John 14:6 23. Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father- 1 Cor. 15:24 24. Christ is mediator between God and man- 1 Timothy 2:5 Quote: Today some people assert that a belief in a mysterious unknowable trinitarian god is essential to a claim of Christianity, even though this requirement is not biblical. At times they use Colossians 2:9 as a proof-text to support their trinitarian concept: "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Though this scripture could appear to vindicate belief in a trinity, the Greek text does not justify this interpretation. The Greek word translated as Godhead in this verse is "theotes." This word actually means "divinity" and is translated as such in many modern Bible translations. Accuratlely translated, this verse should read "in Chirst the fulness of divinity dwells in bodily form" (see New International Version). Thus, the qualities of Godhood are manifest to us in Christ, but Christ is not God the Father. It is important to note that the word "trinity" does not appear any where in the Kind James bible nor any other reputable translation of the bible. The present trinitarian concept cannot be derived from an impartial reading of the bible. Justification of this doctrine using citations of biblical verses is weak and inconclusive at best. The term Godhead, on the other hand, is an accepted biblical term(Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9) and the preferred title in the LDS Church....but such usage denotes a three-person Godhead and not a one-being concept...The latter concept of the trinity, now held by much of "mainstream Christianity" seems to have originated under the influence of Greek and other oriental philosophies during the period of apostasy following the death of the apostles. All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham @ EG I wasn't trying to start this argument, and I really don't want to get into it. And some of those verses can be interpreted to support the Trinity theory. I'm not gonna point them out because I don't want to fight about it, I'm just saying. And @Shadow, it says in the Bible 'make a joyful noise'. And I also want to say I don't think being reverent is the most important part of worship (I see more biblical backing for the way we evangelicals worship then for your reverent, passion-killing [the word's strong not because I want to insult you, but because I don't have a better term. I apologize in advance {please take no offense} for the strength, though I do think there's some truth to it] services.) I do feel the church is an appropriate place to dance, and that it's a little silly to think otherwise. To respond about your deal on the trinity...if you read some of the translations from the Greek text..none of those verses will support the trinity. Have you ever attended a service at the LDS Church? A fast and testimony meeting for example? The Spirit of God is so strong there you can't help but cry. Upon entering in the temple and beginning the work to be performed within it's walls, the Spirit of God is stonger still. It's so beautiful and I cannot even describe it. I used to be protestant, and I will say from my own experience that I have never felt the Spirit so strong until I joined the LDS church. When I was a Protestant, I barely even tapped the surface of what the Gospel of Jesus had to offer me, but then I joined the LDS Church and found the fulness of the Gospel and now I will never go back because I know with out a doubt that I have the fulness of the truth and that the Church is true. As for the making a joyful noise unto God, that can be interpreted many different ways. Singing hymns, saying your prayers, bearing your testimony, and talking of the wonderful things that Heavenly Father has done in your life. Doesn't mean you have to shout and be loud to be joyful. I live around the Great Lakes (and I love it here). I don't think there's any LDS churches around here and if there were, I doubt I'd attend. I really believe in what my church believes, and I have no desire to look at other congregations. And I could say the same for my church. I really doubt you'd walk out of there with the same feeling about the subject. And nothing in the Bible confirms what you're saying about dancing in Church being wrong. Besides the original churches were groups of people who gathered in Fellowship, without a building. Are you saying now that we use buildings to congregate, dancing in those buildings spoils it? (And it's not just about 'being loud' [though I see nothing wrong with that]. It's about praising Him.I think you're church misses out on some of the passion). Maybe we should drop the subject since it doesn't look like we'll come to agree. In this case, I think we're nitpicking. It doesn't matter whether you are in a building or not, it's the holy ground in which you stand on. You dont want to disrupt it. It's like walking through a serene forest. You wouldn't want to go through there shouting and making a bunch of noise you'll disrupt the peacefulness within. It works the same way for worshiping Heavenly Father and feeling the Holy Spirit, since He speaks in that still, small voice, you don't want to go shouting and drowning His voice out.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:45 pm
E.G. 007 xxEternallyBluexx Shadows-shine xxEternallyBluexx E.G. 007 Some reasons why the trinity is not backed biblically: All of these texts are taken from the book titled "Challenging Mormon Questions" By Michael W. Hickenbotham @ EG I wasn't trying to start this argument, and I really don't want to get into it. And some of those verses can be interpreted to support the Trinity theory. I'm not gonna point them out because I don't want to fight about it, I'm just saying. And @Shadow, it says in the Bible 'make a joyful noise'. And I also want to say I don't think being reverent is the most important part of worship (I see more biblical backing for the way we evangelicals worship then for your reverent, passion-killing [the word's strong not because I want to insult you, but because I don't have a better term. I apologize in advance {please take no offense} for the strength, though I do think there's some truth to it] services.) I do feel the church is an appropriate place to dance, and that it's a little silly to think otherwise. To respond about your deal on the trinity...if you read some of the translations from the Greek text..none of those verses will support the trinity. Have you ever attended a service at the LDS Church? A fast and testimony meeting for example? The Spirit of God is so strong there you can't help but cry. Upon entering in the temple and beginning the work to be performed within it's walls, the Spirit of God is stonger still. It's so beautiful and I cannot even describe it. I used to be protestant, and I will say from my own experience that I have never felt the Spirit so strong until I joined the LDS church. When I was a Protestant, I barely even tapped the surface of what the Gospel of Jesus had to offer me, but then I joined the LDS Church and found the fulness of the Gospel and now I will never go back because I know with out a doubt that I have the fulness of the truth and that the Church is true. As for the making a joyful noise unto God, that can be interpreted many different ways. Singing hymns, saying your prayers, bearing your testimony, and talking of the wonderful things that Heavenly Father has done in your life. Doesn't mean you have to shout and be loud to be joyful. I live around the Great Lakes (and I love it here). I don't think there's any LDS churches around here and if there were, I doubt I'd attend. I really believe in what my church believes, and I have no desire to look at other congregations. And I could say the same for my church. I really doubt you'd walk out of there with the same feeling about the subject. And nothing in the Bible confirms what you're saying about dancing in Church being wrong. Besides the original churches were groups of people who gathered in Fellowship, without a building. Are you saying now that we use buildings to congregate, dancing in those buildings spoils it? (And it's not just about 'being loud' [though I see nothing wrong with that]. It's about praising Him.I think you're church misses out on some of the passion). Maybe we should drop the subject since it doesn't look like we'll come to agree. In this case, I think we're nitpicking. It doesn't matter whether you are in a building or not, it's the holy ground in which you stand on. You dont want to disrupt it. It's like walking through a serene forest. You wouldn't want to go through there shouting and making a bunch of noise you'll disrupt the peacefulness within. It works the same way for worshiping Heavenly Father and feeling the Holy Spirit, since He speaks in that still, small voice, you don't want to go shouting and drowning His voice out. You're making the Lord out to be very one-dimensional. He created volcanoes too you know, and they can be just as awe-inspiring to watch. Both passion and peace are important. Plus, you still haven't given any scripture to prove your point. All that been provided is some scripture that may or may not support the Trinity depending on the interpretation, and a quote from a Mormon book which doesn't apply to me because I'm not Mormon. I can find scripture to prove my point (And I will, if you ask me too). Can you?
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