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Formerly called the NCS, this is a place for communists and socialists to talk about communism and socialism. 

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Le Pere Duchesne
Captain

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:37 am


King To Be Hailed
Trotsky was politically harmful to the well-being of the Soviet Union, whose politburo saw fit to instate Stalin as opposed to Trotsky.

Trotsky

Before he felt out his own course, the bureaucracy felt out Stalin himself. He brought it all the necessary guarantees: the prestige of an old Bolshevik, a strong character, narrow vision, and close bonds with the political machine as the sole source of his influence.... A secondary figure before the masses and in the events of the revolution, Stalin revealed himself as the indubitable leader of the Thermidorian bureaucracy, as first in its midst.


King To Be Hailed
Stalin's rule was constantly running under the principles of Democratic Centralism advocated by Lenin.

So the purges and s**t...? That was the 'fullest internal discussion' was it?


King To Be Hailed
Stalin never had supreme power,

Never said he did. He was merely the head of the bureaucracy.

King To Be Hailed
and any bureaucratic privileges Stalin held had been approved for him

And? Granting bureaucrats salary increases and other perks (in July 1922) is antithetical to Marxism.
Remember State And Revolution? Remember The Civil War in France?
Yeah.

King To Be Hailed
(and ended up being handy come the invasion of the Nazis).

How did pay increases and the elimination of soviet democracy help fight the Nazis?

King To Be Hailed
Trotsky's labelling of the order in the USSR is flawed.

A Degenerated Workers State is one where there has been a successful proletarian revolution, but the organs of proletarian democracy have since been destroyed or made defunct.

Please explain how this is an inaccurate lable for the SU.

King To Be Hailed
This is my belief. I see no reason to believe that the red bourgeoisie he saw existed.

Neither did Trotsky, what's your point?

King To Be Hailed
If anything, he only demonized them because the man was a sore loser.

There was no demonisation. There was a recognition that the ruling clique in the SU and the Comintern generally were no longer revolutionary.

On could point out the people in high places and see just how stark this was. Many of them opposed the insurrection from inside the Bolsheviks or were members of opposition parties fighting against the insurrection!

King To Be Hailed
The true downfall of Socialism came with the revisionist policies of Khruschev.

The SU was never socialist. It was, however, a Workers State. The workers state was destroyeg by Gorby/Yeltsin, not Khruschev.

King To Be Hailed
Stalin simply made the right choices.

His 'right choices' were all taken from Trotsky.

King To Be Hailed
Trotsky's policies would have run the entire thing into the ground.

Funny, then, that Stalin was forced to implement most of those policies.

King To Be Hailed
Even the Great Lenin would not back up Trotsky's bid for power.

Funny that, because he certainly wanted Stalin removed.

King To Be Hailed
How can I believe he was correct if the Great Lenin did not see him fit?

Lenin prefered Trotsky to Stalin, and even ignoring that... He was right.

King To Be Hailed
How can I deny the incredible successes of Stalin?

what 'incredible successes'?

King To Be Hailed
I do not idolize Stalin, but I see him as being the proper leader for the USSR at the time.

Too bad he was the 'Great Organiser of Defeats' abroad then, eh.

King To Be Hailed
Trotsky's ideas had no place given the situation.

Industrialisation, soviet democracy, internal party democracy, international rvolution... No, never.

King To Be Hailed
Trotsky repeatedly blamed the KPD for allowing the Nazis to rise through their lack of alliance with the Social Democrats.

Not entirely. It was also the refusal to do anything after Hitler came to power, nor any internal criticism of the path taken. That there was no discussion after that great defeat was proof that the comintern was dead as a revolutionary force.

King To Be Hailed
Was Trotsky aware that it was the Social Democrats who blocked any merging of powers, with Stalin only changing his mind after it had become clear that they were akin to the fascists, though without the boot to stomp with? Of course he was. But Trotsky was a propagandist, and he knew what information to leave out.

Call for a united front. When the SPD refuses, then the KPD can say 'see, they refuse to do anyhting! This is proof that only we can do anything!'

Instead, however, they slandered them as social-fascists, and then once Hitler took power...
Sucked up to the 'social-fascists' and bourgeois democrats for the 'people's front against fascism.'

Hooray for consistency.

with Stalin only changing his mind after it had become clear that they were akin to the fascists, though without the boot to stomp with? Of course he was. But Trotsky was a propagandist, and he knew what information to leave out.


King To Be Hailed
For the record, Trotsky organized the Red Army, yes. And that is an excellent task!

And Stalin did nothing. Hell, prior to Lenin coming back he was even calling for a merger with the Mensheviks!

King To Be Hailed
But Stalin himself served well during the Civil War,

[cough]Poland[/cough]

King To Be Hailed
as he was deployed to various significant fronts and managed them properly.

[cough]Warsaw[/cough]

King To Be Hailed
The "history" of Stalin that Trotskyists uphold was formed by Nazi-paid American newspaper conglomerates.

Oh? Where did you get this story from?
I thought the traditional Stalinist lie was that he was an agent of the Mikado. I guess that was just too obviously bullshit that a new story was needed.

King To Be Hailed
How can I trust them? How can any self respecting communist trust them?

If it were true, you couldn't. But it isn't. So now I ask 'how can you trust those who make up and contiinue t propagate such a lie?'

King To Be Hailed
Stalin's politics created a mighty nation and an invigorated proletariat.

Really? Invogorated? considering the working conditions the proletariat had to suffer I guess it would either end up hardy or dead... but that isn't something to crow about.

King To Be Hailed
I would say his politics have been vindicated just fine.

Opposition to Permanent Revolution, and therefore supporting the Menshevik schema of the 'Two-Stage Revolution':
China, Japan, the countries take over by fascism... And then the s**t after stalin throughout the third world...
Yeah.

Socialism in One Country? English General Strike of 1926, the Spanish Civil War, giving support to the 'democratic' imperialists during WWII...

Just two policies there and we see how badly the situation went.
King To Be Hailed
I see no problem with the decisions made under the post-Lenin Politburo, and therefore see problem with Trotsky's assertions.

I think a lot of this is because Trotsky's views have been misrepresented.
Short:
The Workers' State, Thermidor and Bonapartism
This explains the use of the term 'thermidorian.'

Bonapartism and Fascism
This is on Germany


Medium:
In Defence of Marxism
This is a collection of letters and articles during a faction fight against those that wanted to cease defending the Soviet Union on the grounds that the bureaucracy had become a new class.

Long:
The Third International After Lenin
This is a criticism of the programme of the Comintern in 1929.

The Revolution Betrayed
This work is where he fully lays out his understanding of the 'bureaucratically degenerated workers state.'
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:05 pm


Dictatorial powers helped the elimination of the Nazis. Stalin understood logistics, and he understood how to win battles, or at least, how a leader can aid in his generals doing that. The so-called purges, so touted by capitalists and Trotskyites alike, were Stalin's ideas on how to regularly purge the party of a bureaucracy. On the small level, there is the example of the 25 000, who eagerly combatted bureaucracy and were given the right to do so by Stalin himself. The "issue" of Stalin's pay raises (I can't see any particularly decadent thing about Stalin's life post-General Secretary) isn't really an issue at all. He was a leader, and the most important man in the Soviet Union. He should be able to relax. I don't see how the assertion that "proletarian democracy" were destroyed or even damaged in the USSR. In fact, Stalin maintained and improved such constructions. He struggled for revolutionary democracy within the party, and that is damned close enough to your touted proletarian democracy. Proletarian democracy in a nation largely full of backwards-thinking peasants is completely unproductive. Instead, Stalin set out to educate these people. Everything in moderation!

The USSR was socialist. Anyone who argues that ought to chill their nuts in a Siberian ice box.

If Stalin, as you say, took his ideas from Trotsky, why did Trotsky oppose them so? Stalin chose some of Bukharin's policies, and some of Trotsky's, and some of ANYONE WHOSE IDEAS WOULD WORK. That's what a leader does. A leader does not b***h and moan about how nobody wants to play the game their way.

The so loved "last testament" of Lenin's was the result of a man who had become unstable. This was a man who continued to work despite knowing his health would be worse for it. This was a man who was angry at Stalin for a single display. Lenin's history with Stalin tells a different story, and I hold nothing against Lenin for saying something in the state he was in during the last days of his life. The Great Lenin made his opinion on Stalin clear before that senile drivel. Stalin over Trotsky! Progress over whining! You, as a Trotskyite, should understand the great advances that took place under Stalin by the eager and willing Proletariat! You should defend these advances! Is this not what Trotsky would have you do? Instead you buy into the capitalist lies. It is not up to a single nation to propagate revolution in other countries. Such a policy is diplomatically suicidal! Stalin wanted the USSR to set foot into the world theater, not cry sic semper tyrannus and be similarly executed! And did not the comintern help provide weapons to the Maoists in China? How can you say that it was dead as a revolutionary force? Your people are petty, completely discarding this or that an organisation, so long as it bears the maligned title of "Stalinist"!

Stalin's contributions during the Civil War cannot be underestimated. In 1918, Stalin was sent to Tsaritsyn (To become Stalingrad) where he immediately organised a chaotic front, opposed Trotsky's two generals there, and won over Krasnov. That same year, Stalin was deployed to Ukraine, where he successfully destroyed Skoropadsky's regime. Again the same year, when the situation in the Urals became worse, Stalin was sent to destroy Kolchak's reactionaries. There he purged the poor comissars established by Trotsky, criticized both Trotsky and Vatsetis, and brought to light some of Trotsky's failures in the area. It was in light of this event that Trotsky was criticized during the 8th congress for his (wait for it) dictatorial manners and adoration of specialists. All of these actions were as much as could be expected by a comrade, and to say that Stalin did nothing is historically revisionist and indeed, treacherous to the Communist movement.

You're unaware that the Hearst press sent a man by the name of Thomas Walker (True name Robert Green), who had never BEEN to the Ukraine, to establish a story about how wretched the situation was? The Nazis provided him his story, and he found his own false photographs to use. The 30 million "statistic" that Green propagated was based on Nazi propaganda, and those that even consider the famine should seek better reference. Yellow journalism is the only reason there are any bad things to be said about Stalin's regime beyond things that can be expected.

Granting the proletariat about 30 more years of life expectancy is suffering? I wasn't aware. Teaching the entire nation to read, giving women a place to give birth in... The industrialization was not a picnic. Look at the industrialization in Great Britain. Then look at the industrialization in the Soviet Union. One was better managed than the other, and it was not the imperialist one. You're one to talk about Mensheviks, considering that Trotsky was one up until the very eve of the revolution. Stalin's loyalty is unquestionable.

King To Be Hailed


Director Mann

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:29 pm


Quote:
Proletarian democracy in a nation largely full of backwards-thinking peasants is completely unproductive.

What a Trotskyist thing to say!

Quote:
Stalin chose some of Bukharin's policies

So why the ******** did he kill Bukharin? Gallenger made the suggestion that many of these purge victims were incompetent so explain how Bukharin was incompetent if you wish to make the same argument.

Quote:

The so loved "last testament" of Lenin's was the result of a man who had become unstable.

Lenin said reduce party membership so and to start regulating ideas with administrative organs that fell outside the party in his last days. Personally I agree because party dominance in the name of the Proletariat seems ridiculous and asking for trouble. But with your argument we would have already thrown this out because Lenin was "unstable".

Quote:
Stalin's contributions during the Civil War cannot be underestimated.

He also ******** up at Poland and lost the RSFSR that war. I think what you said and his blunders cancel out.

Quote:
criticized both Trotsky and Vatsetis

Vatsetis is the ******** reason the Bolsheviks even survived. Yet you're going to pretend criticizing him is a plus to Stalin? Sir you need to stop inhaling whatever fumes you have around the house.


I agree that Stalin was certainly not some traitor to the USSR but you're ******** up the argument with this bullshit you posted. Being a Stalinist doesn't mean you suddenly paint a rosy picture of Stalin and white wash over all of what he did. Tsaritsyn probably could have been won without Stalin's intervention. Kolchak was never in the ******** Ukraine, he was in Siberia. I have no idea what history you learned, but despite coming to agreeable conclusions your work in getting there is completely wrong.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:41 pm


Right, sorry. That Kolchak bit was supposed to say "Urals". Oh wait, nevermind, it did. You misread, dear Comrade. I don't whitewash over what Stalin did, I merely reevaluate based on historical circumstance, and it's clear that much of what has been said of the man is bullshit. I can't defend everything, and certainly every murder wasn't productive. It's unfortunate, but what of it. Considering Poland INVADED the RSFSR, I don't think it can be considered that they lost, so much as they nearly destroyed Poland only to be defeated at the last moment. Are you forgetting that Vatsetis was arrested? The Central Committee then had to refuse Trotsky's resignation. Why would Trotsky, if he were such a loyal comrade, resign over something so trivial? Stalin merely saw a tendency in Vatsetis that resulted in his arrest.
Besides, I'm not a Stalinist. I merely maintain that he did what made sense.

King To Be Hailed


purete controle seulement

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:23 pm


Comrade Mann
Hero you needs to clam down. You're to easy to rile. You're like nearly the perfect person to troll. In fact I would have already done it if I had a reason to troll you. But don't keep getting mad at everything until you give me a reason.


Um, I'm a very gullible person. :T

If you think Hero is easy to troll you haven't even tried with me...

rofl
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:21 pm


King To Be Hailed
Right, sorry. That Kolchak bit was supposed to say "Urals".
Nice try but the SRs and Mensheviks had the Urals.

Quote:
I don't whitewash over what Stalin did

Really? I'd love to see what you say about people you hate then.


Considering Poland INVADED the RSFSR, I don't think it can be considered that they lost, so much as they nearly destroyed Poland only to be defeated at the last moment

Quote:
Are you forgetting that Vatsetis was arrested?

I do forget what was he arrested over?

Quote:
if he were such a loyal comrade, resign over something so trivial?
Considering Lenin was going to resign over not signign Brest-Litovsk I don't think that's something that's really altogether unsurprising.


Quote:
I'm not a Stalinist. I merely maintain that he did what made sense.
You pretty much glorified his victories in the Civil War as much as he did. Krasnov wanted to secure the Host regions, Tsaritsyn was not in the Cossack host regions at all.

Director Mann


Gelatin Jones

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:23 am


Quote:
Nice try but the SRs and Mensheviks had the Urals.

Yes... and Kolchak attacked the SRs, who then combined their armed forces with the Red Army. There was nothing wrong with my statement regarding Kolchak's threatening of the Urals, and I never said anything about him threatening Ukraine. As I said, you misread, and I'd appreciate that acknowledgment, at the least.

Quote:
I do forget what was he arrested over?

Some minor dispute with a Colonel named E. E. Kamenev (no relation). Essentially, he removed a good comrade from a position because he thought that Comrade was wrong. The Central Committee ruled in favor of Kamenev when it turned out that Kamenev was right. I don't really know the circumstances, sorry.

Quote:
You pretty much glorified his victories in the Civil War as much as he did. Krasnov wanted to secure the Host regions, Tsaritsyn was not in the Cossack host regions at all.


Tsaritsyn was still a chaotic scene that was under threat. Lenin still considered what Stalin did there as a model. Really, Trotskyites and everyone else like to think that Stalin did nothing during the Civil War, and that, to me, is more of a crime than the so-called glorification of what Stalin did during the Civil War. At least the "glorification" is rooted in fact.


Also! You've successfully converted me to dissecting posts. It's worth the extra effort, I suppose, even if it, at first glance (or so I thought) seems tedious.
Also! Also! You should have commented on my Siberian ice box comment. In retrospect, it is not only nonsensical, since the ice box would be warmer than the Siberia surrounding it, it is also completely misplaced in a debate.
Also! Also! Also! Have the last word, this conversation is misplaced, and it can't lead anywhere productive. It's good to finally converse with you, comrade.
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MCS: Marxism, Communism, Socialism

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