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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:01 am
Disclaimer Hello, my name is Hannah Yeager and on ff.net my pen name is Isabel Night. I write Ronin Warriors / Yoroiden Samurai Troopers fan fiction, and I mostly focus on the Four Dark Warlords / Yon Masho. I will try to write, at least once a month, an editorial on fan fiction writing and ff.net. Please note that these are editorials are not endorsed by ff.net or any of the staff in this guild. These are purely my opinions in the 11+ years I've been writing fan fiction. I also ask that my editorials not turn into actual blown-out fights. The guild moderators do have the power to lock my editorials should a verbal fight break out. You don't have to like what I say or agree with it, but do not pick a fight in my thread. With that out of the way, here is my second editorial... ...will rise up and fight while we sit still... Alright, I was listening to the song Like Toy Soldiers from the rap artist Eminem. I've always liked his serious songs and the actual music video for Like Toy Soldiers starts out with angry words that escalates into someone getting murdered. While the music video is a sobering reminder of the violent history rap music has acquired, I sometimes think that the only way the Critics United controversy is going to be settled is in a similar fashion: a dead body from either a murder or a suicide. I personally hope it doesn't come down to an actual death. In fact, below is a parody of Dale Earnhardt's words about racing: I'm a fan fiction writer. You get an idea, you put it down on paper, and you let the story unfold. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be popular, Maybe you won't. I want to write I mean there's nothing in world like the surge of adrenaline as you type out a first draft I'm comfortable with that... Fan fiction writing is fun. I love to write rough drafts and send them to Beta Readers so I can improve my writing. I love to get reviews from other writers. However, where do we draw the line? Deny it all you want to, but ff.net is called "The Pit of Voles" for a reason. For so long, many stories fell through the cracks. The site got bigger and eventually the few moderators were swamped. More stories fell through the cracks till there was little to almost no active moderation. And when a site has enough stories that fall through the cracks, well - you get the situation ff.net is currently dealing with right now. You can petition the staff all you want, but sooner or later, staff will have to do a purge. That's how it is. Too many stories and authors and not enough staff to keep up with the daily workload is frustrating to say the least. Still, no one gave Critics United - known in this article as CU - the authority to be a vigilante group. No one but themselves gave them the power to harass flame, insult, mock, or just be generic assholes. I do agree that they have egos up the wazoo, but it is not their calling in life to play vigilante to a website that is divided against them. For example, I type in the CU name in the forums' search to see how bad the whole CU debacle is becoming. To my utter surprise and horror, CU is only one group while there are 11 Anti-CU Forums out there. 11 total! I understand they're hated, but really, 11 Forums that hate CU? The strategist in me who loves bloodshed and wants ego bubbles popped, wants all those forums to consolidate into one large forum and have an organized, united front against CU. The human side of me - you know, the one that actually has morals - is appalled that 11 people just cannot ignore these CU Idiots and/or simply report them for trolling. In fact, while we're on the subject of staff, how come every CUer hasn't been banned for flaming, trolling, etc.? So the whole site has been ruined by one a*****e forum and 11 counter forums who claim that they will help writers against CU by giving honest critiques and telling off CU. This is starting to follow the same trend as the Like Toy Soldiers video. I hope it doesn't lead to someone getting shot. This following parody will finalize my point: There used to be a time when You could just write a fan fiction And didn't have to worry about One of your people dying But now its elevated, 'cause once you put someone's kids in it the s**t gets escalated it ain't just words now, is it Sadly, with all this hate going around, a death wouldn't surprise me in the least. Cold as that sounds, until both sides get a grip on this whole issue and settle it like mature people, the hate will continue, the pro/against-CU forums will keep popping up, and my little corner of ff.net - the Ronin Warriors section - will stay blissfully ignorant of the whole escapade. My hope is that no one dies. However, if I remain silent on the issue, wouldn't that be the same as damning myself to the first circle of Hell as described in Dante's Inferno?
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:01 am
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:07 pm
My only opinion is short to the point things are going to go to hell in a hand bag if ff doesn't take measures to minimize impact if the two factions decided to escalate things.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:05 pm
I know of at least one case where someone already DID try to commit suicide because of CU and their abusive remarks.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:13 pm
Then what the parents should do is sue ff.net and tell them that if they don't remove/ban the CU members, it's a lawsuit. Trust me, the word lawsuit wil get the site up and banning the CU members of ff.net
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:17 pm
Hannah Yeager Then what the parents should do is sue ff.net and tell them that if they don't remove/ban the CU members, it's a lawsuit. Trust me, the word lawsuit wil get the site up and banning the CU members of ff.net I don't know the person personally, otherwise I would have suggested the very same thing to them about a month ago. The information came to me by way of an update posted by the author of the petition in my signature. David Anderson (Petition Organizer) Hello everyone. Well I just took a glance at CU forum page. Apparently the administration stood up to them and told them not to curse in reviews. A small victory. On a sadder note, one of the authors reported that his friend attempted suicide because of the treatment CU is dishing out at her. To my knowledge she is all right. This is exactly why we have to take a stand. And if CU is reading this: I won't curse, I won't swear eternal revenge, but I will stand up for the rights of my fellow authors. You may laugh, dismiss us as being beneath your notice, but in the end you have no power over us.
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:42 am
The internet's not neccessarily a nice place, and if you can't deal with it, maybe you shouldn't be on it. I mean, if you're depressed/suicidal, you usually know that you're depressed/suicidal. If you don't think that you can deal with the risk that someone somewhere might say something mean to you on the internet, don't set yourself up for that. It's not like real life, where you're gonna have to deal with people. You can choose whether or not to go on the internet.
I mean, I know that not everyone will like what I write. Hell, sometimes I don't like what I write. And that's fine. But if you're expecting everyone to love the crap you post (because a lot of the time it is crap) just because your friends RL said that it was great because they don't want to damage your fragile feelings, you're setting yourself up. Develop some kind of backbone, ffs. Not everyone in life's gonna tip toe around you just because of your fragile state of mind, and I had to learn that.
That being said, you don't know the person behind the computer. People don't know that they're talking to a suicidal person. And, because you don't know the person behind the computer, people can be more harsh than they would be in RL, because no one's going to know it's them. There was something I read about this and its relation to flamers/trolls but I'll have to see if I can find it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:55 pm
While I think CU can run from harsh to trolling, they officially aren't doing anything against FF.net TOS(as long as they aren't trolling). The site at this point needs users to report fics that break the rules, BECAUSE of the traffic level. That's the only way it's going to be anywhere remotely close to moderated.
I do think the moderation needs to be fixed so that authors have a chance to fix their s**t, or be given warnings, but other than CU being an organized front how are they any different than a user reporting a story in volation on their own?
Unless you feel like no one should report(a valid stance to take), then I can't see how you have a problem with what they do in concept .
As for how it is in reality, I think they could mellow out some, and stop trolling, but I've gotten nasty responses from people before when I'm just trying to help. So I don't blame them for flaming IF the author started it because they didn't want to hear that their s**t stank.
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:25 pm
I don't care much for CU. I don't think being a vigilante group solves anything. It's sort of like the Jury Duty I am expecting to serve starting tomorrow. By law, being a vigilante is a crime - now, people may sympathize with their goals and ideas, but if you want to get down to the meat and bones of the issue, what they're doing is illegal. Now, the court of public opinion isn't the same as the court of justice. In the court of justice, a vigilante is a person who took the law into their own hands. Which is illegal. In the court of public opinion, they are heroes for letting the bad guys pay for what slips through the cracks in the justice system. It's two completely different rules. However, as a person starting their Jury Duty, the court of public opinion isn't the issue. Jurors have rules and ethical codes they have to follow when deciding someone's fate. Does that mean that the court of public opinion is better or worse than the court of law? Does that mean that if the rules I have to follow decides someone's guilt or innocence must always be popular? No. For example: I agree with the Casey Anthony verdict because the prosecution fail to link her to the murder. Even though there wasn't much hard evidence, the prosecution failed even to connect what little evidence there was to Casey Anthony. Again, the court of public opinion ISN'T the court of law. At the same, I also agree with the Jerry Sandusky verdict because the prosecution presented a strong case to the jury. Was the evidence so disgusting that I wanted to gag? Yes. However, the prosecution presented a strong case and the jury gave a guilty verdict. Now, as a 29 year old who many can claim is "out of touch" these are rules and regulations I live by. I know most CUer's are probably too young for Jury Duty, but when you are being held to a standard higher than the court of public opinion, then your POV changes. I'm sorry for the moral lesson, but that's how I feel. And if I'm out of touch with the rest of the ff.net community, well, that's their opinion...
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:42 pm
Hannah Yeager I don't care much for CU. I don't think being a vigilante group solves anything. It's sort of like the Jury Duty I am expecting to serve starting tomorrow. By law, being a vigilante is a crime - now, people may sympathize with their goals and ideas, but if you want to get down to the meat and bones of the issue, what they're doing is illegal. Now, the court of public opinion isn't the same as the court of justice. In the court of justice, a vigilante is a person who took the law into their own hands. Which is illegal. In the court of public opinion, they are heroes for letting the bad guys pay for what slips through the cracks in the justice system. It's two completely different rules However, as a person starting their Jury Duty, the court of public opinion isn't the issue. Jurors have rules and ethical codes they have to follow when deciding someone's fate. Does that mean that the court of public opinion is better or worse than the court of law? Does that mean that if the rules I have to follow decides someone's guilt or innocence must always be popular? No. For example: I agree with the Casey Anthony verdict because the prosecution fail to link her to the murder. Even though there wasn't much hard evidence, the prosecution failed even to connect what little evidence there was to Casey Anthony. Again, the court of public opinion ISN'T the court of law. At the same, I also agree with the Jerry Sandusky verdict because the prosecution presented a strong case to the jury. Was the evidence so disgusting that I wanted to gag? Yes. However, the prosecution presented a strong case and the jury gave a guilty verdict. Now, as a 29 year old who many can claim is "out of touch" these are rules and regulations I live by. I know most CUer's are probably too young for Jury Duty, but when you are being held to a standard higher than the court of public opinion, then your POV changes. I'm sorry for the moral lesson, but that's how I feel. And if I'm out of touch with the rest of the ff.net community, well, that's their opinion... Seriously, I'm in my 20s too, I know how jury duty and vigilantism works in the real world, you don't have to explain it to me. The problem here is one of context. Vigilantes in real life have to actually break the law in order to capture criminals and stop them. What CU is much more, in fact basically equal to, a person reporting a crime to the police. Just calling it in, doing their civic duty . CU has no power to get a fic taken down. It isn't like the situation IRL where they can citizen arrest someone, beat them up, ect. They only thing they can do is report, once again analogous to calling in a crime in progress. Because they have no power to actually remove a fic, and it relies on the mods(the police) responding(coming out to investigate a call) they are in no way like a vigilante group. They are like the neighborhood watch, basically, who aren't illegal btw. The report button is at the bottom of every chapter page in any fic. Therefore, it's built into the system that the mods are expecting other users to report those in violation of the rules. In which case, they are acting inside the context of the law.(similar to the way we have anonymous tips lines IRL) Soo once again, I have to ask, do you have a problem with reporting as a concept?
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:54 pm
Vixianna Vigilantes in real life have to actually break the law in order to capture criminals and stop them. What CU is much more, in fact basically equal to, a person reporting a crime to the police. Just calling it in, doing their civic duty . CU has no power to get a fic taken down. It isn't like the situation IRL where they can citizen arrest someone, beat them up, ect. They only thing they can do is report, once again analogous to calling in a crime in progress.
Well, you're half-right.
Yes, what CU is doing is technically reporting people and fictions to the "police", and if they just stopped there I would not have a problem with them. But they are continuing to message, insult and harass authors after their reports have already been submitted. That is comparable to calling in a parking violation and then proceeding to smash in the offending vehicle's windows.
The only reason why what they're doing ISN'T breaking the ToS is because ff.n has worded their Terms of Service, Agreement, and Rules so ambiguously that its got more loop-holes than Swiss cheese.
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:04 pm
Renkon Root Vixianna Vigilantes in real life have to actually break the law in order to capture criminals and stop them. What CU is much more, in fact basically equal to, a person reporting a crime to the police. Just calling it in, doing their civic duty . CU has no power to get a fic taken down. It isn't like the situation IRL where they can citizen arrest someone, beat them up, ect. They only thing they can do is report, once again analogous to calling in a crime in progress.
Well, you're half-right.
Yes, what CU is doing is technically reporting people and fictions to the "police", and if they just stopped there I would not have a problem with them. But they are continuing to message, insult and harass authors after their reports have already been submitted. That is comparable to calling in a parking violation and then proceeding to smash in the offending vehicle's windows.
The only reason why what they're doing ISN'T breaking the ToS is because ff.n has worded their Terms of Service, Agreement, and Rules so ambiguously that its got more loop-holes than Swiss cheese. I remember specifically saying that if they were trolling(which includes what you outlined and does not include all members) that this was against the TOS. However, there's plenty of silent reporting going on, and CU has been doing that for a long while. They've only gained attention recently because of the large purge that happened as mods caught up to the reports. And no it isn't like smashing in the windows, that would be if they were able to go into the person's fic and change things around. What that is, is like yelling obscene things at the car's owner after you hang up. It's harassment, and illegal, but doesn't affect the car itself. And the TOS isn't vague, it's pretty damn clear if you actually read it with any attention and any comprehension skills. Harassing other members is against TOS, and if they are doing so, the users in question need to save the PMs(or if review it will be public) and report them to the mods. (who I'm sure are quite over worked in general.)
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:15 pm
Vixianna Harassing other members is against TOS, and if they are doing so, the users in question need to save the PMs(or if review it will be public) and report them to the mods. (who I'm sure are quite over worked in general.) Yes, but what is defined as harassment is ambiguous. Its the same problem they have with the M vs. MA ratings. Their definitions are not definitive and are instead open to interpretation.
...
Also, you seem to have a personal stake in this debate, so I understand things getting a little heated. But could you please try to refrain from passive aggressive personal attacks. Statements like "if you actually read it with any attention and any comprehension skills" are rude personal attacks. This is a debate, please only attack the poster's argument, not the posters themselves. Imply someone has no comprehension skills or does not read with attention is a personal attack.
I am guild crew and this is your first warning.
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:06 pm
Renkon Root Vixianna Harassing other members is against TOS, and if they are doing so, the users in question need to save the PMs(or if review it will be public) and report them to the mods. (who I'm sure are quite over worked in general.) Yes, but what is defined as harassment is ambiguous. Its the same problem they have with the M vs. MA ratings. Their definitions are not definitive and are instead open to interpretation.
...
Also, you seem to have a personal stake in this debate, so I understand things getting a little heated. But could you please try to refrain from passive aggressive personal attacks. Statements like "if you actually read it with any attention and any comprehension skills" are rude personal attacks. This is a debate, please only attack the poster's argument, not the posters themselves. Imply someone has no comprehension skills or does not read with attention is a personal attack.
I am guild crew and this is your first warning.
I wasn't talking to you specifically, but speaking to the idea that users in general violate because the TOS is unclear. The fact you took it as a personal attack is more telling of your mentality than my own. I hope you stay out of the ED then, because this? Isn't close to heated. I have no personal stake in this either, I'm a member of neither CU or an anti group, I just don't appreciate being condescended to(the OPs response) or misread(your own last two responses). Now, you can ban me for disagreeing with you if you'd like, or for misreading and assuming I was talking about you. Back to the topic, the ratings are also pretty clear "Not suitable for children or teens below the age of 16 with non-explicit suggestive adult themes, references to some violence, or coarse language. Fiction M can contain adult language, themes and suggestions. Detailed descriptions of physical interaction of sexual or violent nature is considered Fiction MA." This means no lemons, and no "torture porn" or "snuff" fics. Pretty clear to me. If it would be in a rated X movie(and some rated R) then it's not allowed. As for harassment, the closest I can see on either the ToS or the Community guidelines is this: "Respect your fellow members and lend a helping a hand when they need it. " Flaming isn't respectful, but some things called flames are not(and that is also specifically mentioned in the community guidelines) However, reviews and PMs are covered under user content and as specified in the ToS: "You further understand and acknowledge that you may be exposed to User Submissions that are inaccurate, offensive, indecent, or objectionable," In other words, you could see curse words and insults. (it goes on to state they aren't liable for your offense) And the implication here is that these things aren't against the ToS. Indeed, I can see nothing about harassment being against the ToS, and only a passing mention of "respect" in the Community guidelines. However, we are also subject to a variety of laws as commented on in the Guidelines and ToS, and because of this, the legally definition of harassment(written or online depending on the country in question ect.) would therefore apply. As such, it is logical to assume that the legal definition of harassment(likely in the USA) applies and can be used to pursue violators of the law on FF.net. At least to the point of reporting to the mods. If that's the case, then the definition is in no way unclear, as legal definitions are as unambiguous as possible. Further, the Fanfiction mods would likely be more stringent to stay on the forward of the law, so there would be a clear delineation of proper behavior.
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:26 pm
Alright guys, I'm sorry to say this but if either of you cannot be civil with each other, I will close and lock this thread. I expressed an opinion and you are free to agree with my words or not. However, flaming, fights, or whatever you want to call it, I don't want it in my thread. With that out of the way... This is going to sound funny, but I still believe that CU is a group that shouldn't exist. Now, as for what I do to make ff.net a bit better is not to go around and reporting stories. Believe it or not, I'm actually, dare I say it, trying to improve my writing skills. I go through multiple Beta Readers - not just one or two Beta Readers, but many Beta Readers. I use Gaia Online to get critiques, and I don't trust anyone who praises my rough draft - heck, I've been writing since 2001 and even I know that I don't produce good, quality rough drafts. I'm currently getting my updated version of my latest story looked over for plotholes and other problems. Spelling and grammar will be last. And yes, if I pay them well enough, I will ask two or more Grammar Nazis to look over my work for spelling and grammar errors. I also invite you to PM me and request my current version of my draft. Until I can get a decent critique before focusing on spelling and grammar, then it's not going to be posted on ff.net. Why? It's not because of the ff.net's ToS or anything, it's because I want to produce good quality work. I don't want to add to the problem. That is how I see it. I don't agree with CU, but I don't want to be part of the problem. Yes, ff.net needs to either purge the site of stories and hire a new round of staff. It's obvious that the site has gotten too big for the current mods and admins. Too many stories have fallen through the cracks. That is one of the few things I agree with CU on. CU isn't going to change ff.net's reputation as "the pit of voles" overnight. It might not be able to do it at all. I don't agree with CU's choice in handling the issue, but I know that I cannot post something on that site that I don't feel is my personal best. I would much rather push myself to write better than report stories. I don't want to be part of the problem. Now, maybe I'm just so out of touch with reality that it doesn't matter, but I'm going to post my best on that site. Even if it is full of garbage, I'm not going to add to it. As a fellow moderator, I'm going to ask that unless you know that Vixianna is a member of CU, refrain from accusing her of being one. Also, I'm worried that you too, are taking this CU thing a bit too personal as well. As kitty868theonly pointed out in a recent update, there was an actual death threat made to a CU member and the police got involved. What I'm worried about is someone will take this CU thing too seriously, and then someone WILL end up dead. This isn't a game - someone is in jail because of this. What I don't want is ff.net to be sued for someone's death - ff.net doesn't need that kind of attention. And if you think other people don't like CU, what do you think the media is going to say about CU? Remember that little post on the court of law and court of public opinion?
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