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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:43 pm
Yes... yes... we all know how much everyone hates Mary-Sues and we all want to avoid them in our writing (with a the occasional exception for parody or satire). So, this is the help thread where we all band together and help each other identify what makes our characters Mary-Sues and change those traits to make them better, more well-rounded characters that readers can relate to.
If you're not sure what exactly a Mary-Sue is, I refer you to this TV Tropes article which I find to be much more helpful than the Wiki page on them (and not JUST because it has a Princess Tutu quote at the top).
Mary-Sue, TV Tropes
I also highly recommend looking over all the many variations of Mary-Sue that are listed and linked on the page. Its very interesting stuff... and also wildly hilarious.
Here is the obligatory Mary-Sue Litmus test: Universal Mary-Sue Test
And, yes, this thread is also a safe place for you to kvetch about how much you 'hate' Mary-Sues, so long as no specific character names, fic titles or author pennames are mentioned.
Remember everyone, Mary-Sues might be annoying but I'm sure we've all written one at some point in our careers. No one is a perfect writer right from the get go. Its a process and the learning curve is different for everyone. Mary-Sues are as much a stage of a writer's development as anything else. Please remember to be respectful in your critiques. This thread is to help people, not put them down. (And, its OKAY to like Mary-Sues some times. Goodness knows how much I love me some Silver Age Superman!)
So, post and critique away!
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:43 pm
Good topic especially for first timers.
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:28 pm
 Don't you know that it's impossible to get out of that site? One does not simply read one page, you see a link and you must read them all. It's madness, madness!In my opinion, I don't think that those things really work. I mean, sure they can be used as a good way to instill confidence that you're writing your character correctly, but it can also give false confidence and not encourage room for improvement. Mary Sues are defined by how they're written, not by the amount of traits and descriptions tacked onto her/him. But again, that's my personal opinion and I don't really use them anymore except when I'm bored and just trying to kill time. Renkon Root And, yes, this thread is also a safe place for you to kvetch about how much you 'hate' Mary-Sues, so long as no specific character names, fic titles or author pennames are mentioned. I don't think hate is a strong enough word for my feelings towards this unfortunate aspect of fanfiction. It doesn't help that authors are going out of their way to make their original characters and self-inserts as special and noticeable as possible. I read one story where the author was a self-inserted opera singer who was blind... Yea... *face palm*
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:55 pm
Victorias Doll Don't you know that it's impossible to get out of that site? One does not simply read one page, you see a link and you must read them all. It's madness, madness!
I know. Magnificent, isn't it. Quote: In my opinion, I don't think that those things really work. I mean, sure they can be used as a good way to instill confidence that you're writing your character correctly, but it can also give false confidence and not encourage room for improvement. Mary Sues are defined by how they're written, not by the amount of traits and descriptions tacked onto her/him. But again, that's my personal opinion and I don't really use them anymore except when I'm bored and just trying to kill time.
This is all very true. However, I think the test is a good starting point for people to gauge their characters on. Of course its not infallible and it should not be an authors ONLY frame of reference when creating their character(s). But I think it helps. Quote: I don't think hate is a strong enough word for my feelings towards this unfortunate aspect of fanfiction. It doesn't help that authors are going out of their way to make their original characters and self-inserts as special and noticeable as possible. I read one story where the author was a self-inserted opera singer who was blind... Yea... *face palm*
Oh, surely not all Mary-Sues are that bad. True, they can grate on a person's nerves when the author is blatantly copying a canon character (as with your example of an OC that sounds remarkably like Blind Mag). I run into those in several of the DC fandoms I read in and I always find myself messaging the author telling them that if they were gonna create a character that's basically the same as Wonder Girl, then just go ahead and use either Donna Troy or Cassandra Sandsmark, you don't need to create a third 'Wonder Girl' and give her a ridiculous name based off your rudimentary knowledge of mythology. Ahem.
But, then there are Mary-Sues that are kinda tolerable and I might even grow to like by the time the fic is over. The only example I can give at the moment are canon-sues like Honda Toru (Fruits Basket), Supergirl (Superman, Supergirl, Action Comics), Superboy (Superman, Superboy, Action Comics), Christopher Kent (Superman, Action Comics), every main female created by Watase Yu, every main female created by Takahashi Rumiko, the list could go on...
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:57 pm
I can't stand mary sues, I look to mythology and Jungian archetypes for inspiration for my female leads.
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:26 pm
RiverSong1984 I can't stand mary sues, I look to mythology and Jungian archetypes for inspiration for my female leads. What about male leads? They have just as much potential to become Gary-Stues as females have of becoming Mary-Sues.
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:49 pm
Renkon Root RiverSong1984 I can't stand mary sues, I look to mythology and Jungian archetypes for inspiration for my female leads. What about male leads? They have just as much potential to become Gary-Stues as females have of becoming Mary-Sues. I do that as well, but I also look to literature as well for my male leads. Hey renkon, how are you?
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 pm
I'm okay.
I reviewed a few chapters of your fic. Haven't finished it yet.
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 pm
I'm probably one of a small few that will admit to this. In my first fanfic, I Canon sued a character. But the writing for that story was pretty shitty all around and I made no allusions as to why I wrote the story in the first place. I wanted to see my favorite character beat the s**t out of my least favorite character, just once. (I've had an unnatural and all consuming hatred for Yuki Sohma since the moment I saw him on the dvd cover and I don't know why.)
The story did serve a purpose of getting it out of my system so I could put my energies into more serious writing and my next two stories were a lot better.
A plot eventually developed, but it was really late coming in. I could probably rewrite it and make it a hundred times better, but I don't feel like it so I just leave it as it is.
Besides the mini fiction in the extras at the end of each chapter were actually amusing. Maybe I should put them up as their own story sometime, like a one shot/flash fanfiction collection.
I've found that when you stop worrying about Mary Sues and start focusing on making the characters believable, the problem tends to correct itself.
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:13 pm
Yeah O saw that, for my captain planet fic. My latest Tintin story could use one as well. emotion_kirakira
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:31 pm
Hmm I don't know if I have created many original characters in my fics then again I try to make them blend in enough and if I don't plan on them playing a major part I might have them die or move into the background as character that you see, but doesn't show up much. Take Ranma 1/2 Dr. Tofu was not a major character in the series and eventually he rarely is shown.
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:46 pm
Renkon Root
I know. Magnificent, isn't it. I will give you that victory by admitting that, yes, it is. I think I spent close to four hours on there last night. I started reading about the tropes present in Moulin Rogue and it just got out of hand from there... It's all just so interesting! Renkon Root
This is all very true. However, I think the test is a good starting point for people to gauge their characters on. Of course its not infallible and it should not be an authors ONLY frame of reference when creating their character(s). But I think it helps. You have a good point there. I remember in my younger writing years spending so much time on there testing all my OCs. Really, I don't mind the confidence boost it gives some writers, but I've just seen it backfire completely before. I remember once an author put her characters through it (who were all painfully Mary Sues) and none of them came through positive. Plus also, looking back now, when you get so good that it results with "Anti-Sue", it seems kind of troublesome, given the original context of an Anti-Sue. I agree the purpose is useful, just not when it's abused. Renkon Root
Oh, surely not all Mary-Sues are that bad. True, they can grate on a person's nerves when the author is blatantly copying a canon character (as with your example of an OC that sounds remarkably like Blind Mag). I run into those in several of the DC fandoms I read in and I always find myself messaging the author telling them that if they were gonna create a character that's basically the same as Wonder Girl, then just go ahead and use either Donna Troy or Cassandra Sandsmark, you don't need to create a third 'Wonder Girl' and give her a ridiculous name based off your rudimentary knowledge of mythology. Ahem. I suppose it's just my particular fandoms then, seeing as the female lead is already so close on that edge, no matter the version you find her in. I do know and believe (thankfully) that there're worse than others and some that aren't that bad. And amen to you, I think you deserve internet cake for that~ yum_cupcake Renkon Root But, then there are Mary-Sues that are kinda tolerable and I might even grow to like by the time the fic is over. The only example I can give at the moment are canon-sues like Honda Toru (Fruits Basket), Supergirl (Superman, Supergirl, Action Comics), Superboy (Superman, Superboy, Action Comics), Christopher Kent (Superman, Action Comics), every main female created by Watase Yu, every main female created by Takahashi Rumiko, the list could go on... Nooooo, you've found my weakness. I just...yes, some I absolutely adore. Like, want to bring them to life and hug them, adore. Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Ravenway will always remain my favorite character, even if she's obviously created of crack and a cruel troll. I love that Mary Sue crying
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:56 pm
Does Bella from Twilight count or is that an out and out troll?
Most of my Oc's keep small parts, but two of my characters are unfortunately needed for plot development so I'll simply have to do my best to ensure that they don't roll over the hill of unbelievable.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:02 pm
MuffinEatinGir Does Bella from Twilight count or is that an out and out troll? Most of my Oc's keep small parts, but two of my characters are unfortunately needed for plot development so I'll simply have to do my best to ensure that they don't roll over the hill of unbelievable.
Yes, Bella from Twilight is a Mary-Sue.
Its not so much the believability vs. unbelievability that makes a character a Mary-Sue. There's this wonderful thing readers and/or viewers do when they read a story or watch a movie called "willing suspension of disbelief". I am totally willing to believe that radioactive bug bites will give you superpowers instead of radiation poisoning, or that yellow sunlight would give a guy the ability to fly and shoot lazers from his eyes. What makes a character a Mary-Sue is how well readers/viewers can relate to said character. Do they still feel "human" to spite all their fantastic abilities? That is what defines a good character vs. a Mary-Sue.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:26 pm
Renkon Root MuffinEatinGir Does Bella from Twilight count or is that an out and out troll? Most of my Oc's keep small parts, but two of my characters are unfortunately needed for plot development so I'll simply have to do my best to ensure that they don't roll over the hill of unbelievable.
Yes, Bella from Twilight is a Mary-Sue.
Its not so much the believability vs. unbelievability that makes a character a Mary-Sue. There's this wonderful thing readers and/or viewers do when they read a story or watch a movie called "willing suspension of disbelief". I am totally willing to believe that radioactive bug bites will give you superpowers instead of radiation poisoning, or that yellow sunlight would give a guy the ability to fly and shoot lazers from his eyes. What makes a character a Mary-Sue is how well readers/viewers can relate to said character. Do they still feel "human" to spite all their fantastic abilities? That is what defines a good character vs. a Mary-Sue. .....This is actually a very confusing response....when I say believable I mean believably human.....I feel properly scolded and slightly baffled.
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