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 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:42 pm
Aeridea ComradeRedFerret Aeridea We've been discussing in our guild once before about how we can get education systems set up so that more people will try to learn for the sake of learning rather than to get rich. It seems that our ideals for a perfect world are very similar, how we think those goals should be achieved is the only difference. Forgive me, I haven't learned very much about different types of economic systems. How exactly does the Communist economic system work? Communism would have been the perfect government system. Unfortunately, whenever it was tried on a large scale, the people would look to someone to help get it started, and these leaders would transform it into a Totalitarian government, the exact opposite of communism. Communism is the idea that the proletarian (workers) should own the means of production (factories, farms, etc) not a couple of business people who hold shares entitling them to profit without producing anything. All Land and production will be State Controlled and run by the people. Money is abolished since there would be no trade, only the equal distribution of goods. Also everyone is required to work or they will not get anything from society, anyone who refuses to work would be sent to labour camps temporaily until they get the message. Large scale Communism was tried on Unindustrial feudal economies. Russia was a incredibly poor country, add to that WW1, and a Civil war with 17 countries participating you can understand why it failed. The war pressure allowed a Dictorial Government to take over and allowed Stalin to exile anyone who opposed him. China inherited Soviet "communism" and it was also a Poorly industrial country that suffered from WW2 and a Civil war, similar to Russia. The Cold war then eliminated any chance for Communist country due to the Pressure from America who wanted to destroy communism, and Russia, who wan't countries to assimalte to there type of Communism. Communism must as Marx said himself begin in an industrialized country where their are means of production the workers can control. Since money and trade will be abolished, how will goods be distributed? And without any competition, what would be the incentive for producers to better their products? Goods will be distributed through Distribution centers, for items that arn't available in large quatities will be shared. Example, a new type of computer is made, but there isn't enough for everyone, they will be stationed in Libraries for everyone to use for about an hour or so. Incentitive will be mainly be inspirational "be a good person", and people who don't put in as much work will basically be shunned by society. Also personal motivation is still around, if you invent a better TV then the TV will be prodced and you will get one yourself, if you make high quality goods you will as a reward get one yourself. Capitalism itself doesn't give much incentitive with the Paid by the hour routine, if your employer isn't watching, what incentitive is there to work hard if your getting paid the same anyways?
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:50 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:00 pm
ComradeRedFerret Aeridea ComradeRedFerret Aeridea We've been discussing in our guild once before about how we can get education systems set up so that more people will try to learn for the sake of learning rather than to get rich. It seems that our ideals for a perfect world are very similar, how we think those goals should be achieved is the only difference. Forgive me, I haven't learned very much about different types of economic systems. How exactly does the Communist economic system work? Communism would have been the perfect government system. Unfortunately, whenever it was tried on a large scale, the people would look to someone to help get it started, and these leaders would transform it into a Totalitarian government, the exact opposite of communism. Communism is the idea that the proletarian (workers) should own the means of production (factories, farms, etc) not a couple of business people who hold shares entitling them to profit without producing anything. All Land and production will be State Controlled and run by the people. Money is abolished since there would be no trade, only the equal distribution of goods. Also everyone is required to work or they will not get anything from society, anyone who refuses to work would be sent to labour camps temporaily until they get the message. Large scale Communism was tried on Unindustrial feudal economies. Russia was a incredibly poor country, add to that WW1, and a Civil war with 17 countries participating you can understand why it failed. The war pressure allowed a Dictorial Government to take over and allowed Stalin to exile anyone who opposed him. China inherited Soviet "communism" and it was also a Poorly industrial country that suffered from WW2 and a Civil war, similar to Russia. The Cold war then eliminated any chance for Communist country due to the Pressure from America who wanted to destroy communism, and Russia, who wan't countries to assimalte to there type of Communism. Communism must as Marx said himself begin in an industrialized country where their are means of production the workers can control. Since money and trade will be abolished, how will goods be distributed? And without any competition, what would be the incentive for producers to better their products? Goods will be distributed through Distribution centers, for items that arn't available in large quatities will be shared. Example, a new type of computer is made, but there isn't enough for everyone, they will be stationed in Libraries for everyone to use for about an hour or so. Incentitive will be mainly be inspirational "be a good person", and people who don't put in as much work will basically be shunned by society. Also personal motivation is still around, if you invent a better TV then the TV will be prodced and you will get one yourself, if you make high quality goods you will as a reward get one yourself. Capitalism itself doesn't give much incentitive with the Paid by the hour routine, if your employer isn't watching, what incentitive is there to work hard if your getting paid the same anyways? How will you know how much of a certain product everyone needs? Especially with food. Wouldn't there be a lot of problems with food, since no one likes the same exact food? How would you be able to distribute everything equally while still giving people a choice about what products they want? With capitalism, the incentive of companies as a whole is to make the best product so that more people will buy the products and the company as a whole makes more money. There are many jobs where the more you sell, the larger your salary is. That is an incentive for the individual. And it will be very hard to get an entire society to work hard only for the good feeling of being a good person, and to shun whoever doesn't. Sometimes that feeling is not satisfaction enough, people need a reward to show that their work is appreciated every once in a while.
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:19 am
Aeridea ComradeRedFerret Aeridea ComradeRedFerret Aeridea We've been discussing in our guild once before about how we can get education systems set up so that more people will try to learn for the sake of learning rather than to get rich. It seems that our ideals for a perfect world are very similar, how we think those goals should be achieved is the only difference. Forgive me, I haven't learned very much about different types of economic systems. How exactly does the Communist economic system work? Communism would have been the perfect government system. Unfortunately, whenever it was tried on a large scale, the people would look to someone to help get it started, and these leaders would transform it into a Totalitarian government, the exact opposite of communism. Communism is the idea that the proletarian (workers) should own the means of production (factories, farms, etc) not a couple of business people who hold shares entitling them to profit without producing anything. All Land and production will be State Controlled and run by the people. Money is abolished since there would be no trade, only the equal distribution of goods. Also everyone is required to work or they will not get anything from society, anyone who refuses to work would be sent to labour camps temporaily until they get the message. Large scale Communism was tried on Unindustrial feudal economies. Russia was a incredibly poor country, add to that WW1, and a Civil war with 17 countries participating you can understand why it failed. The war pressure allowed a Dictorial Government to take over and allowed Stalin to exile anyone who opposed him. China inherited Soviet "communism" and it was also a Poorly industrial country that suffered from WW2 and a Civil war, similar to Russia. The Cold war then eliminated any chance for Communist country due to the Pressure from America who wanted to destroy communism, and Russia, who wan't countries to assimalte to there type of Communism. Communism must as Marx said himself begin in an industrialized country where their are means of production the workers can control. Since money and trade will be abolished, how will goods be distributed? And without any competition, what would be the incentive for producers to better their products? Goods will be distributed through Distribution centers, for items that arn't available in large quatities will be shared. Example, a new type of computer is made, but there isn't enough for everyone, they will be stationed in Libraries for everyone to use for about an hour or so. Incentitive will be mainly be inspirational "be a good person", and people who don't put in as much work will basically be shunned by society. Also personal motivation is still around, if you invent a better TV then the TV will be prodced and you will get one yourself, if you make high quality goods you will as a reward get one yourself. Capitalism itself doesn't give much incentitive with the Paid by the hour routine, if your employer isn't watching, what incentitive is there to work hard if your getting paid the same anyways? How will you know how much of a certain product everyone needs? Especially with food. Wouldn't there be a lot of problems with food, since no one likes the same exact food? How would you be able to distribute everything equally while still giving people a choice about what products they want? With capitalism, the incentive of companies as a whole is to make the best product so that more people will buy the products and the company as a whole makes more money. There are many jobs where the more you sell, the larger your salary is. That is an incentive for the individual. And it will be very hard to get an entire society to work hard only for the good feeling of being a good person, and to shun whoever doesn't. Sometimes that feeling is not satisfaction enough, people need a reward to show that their work is appreciated every once in a while. People will have choice of food, they will get a standard "set" with the appropriate nutrition for the term containing your basic bread, vegetable, fruits, rice, etc. Then their will be luxery food ranging from honey to pizza, which people will have a choice. If they want more of one thing they already have the maximum of they can swap with a neighbor for it. People who work hard will be rewarded with extra freetime, if you make 12 widgets a day for 5 days and the daily quota is 10 widgets, you get a day off since you did 6 days work in 5 days, therefore you get a day to yourself. If you want to slack off it is fine as long as you meet the daily quota, with the lack of unemployment and commercial labour there will be a large increase in industrial labourers, meaning less work is needed from the individual. The Corporations goal is maximum profit, the largest expenditure of any corporation are wages, as seen in the industrial revolution, Corporations would pay only the minimum of what a person needs to maintain itself. If a corporation is doing well, the workers don't profit, only the stockholders. If a corporation does poorly people are laid off, however the success of Corporations sadly isn't the responsibility of the workers, it is determined by the randomness of the stock market. There is little incentitive from the workers since they do not profit from the sucess of the company, they only work the minimum to appear they are working to the boss to get a promotion.
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:58 pm
ComradeRedFerret People will have choice of food, they will get a standard "set" with the appropriate nutrition for the term containing your basic bread, vegetable, fruits, rice, etc. Then their will be luxery food ranging from honey to pizza, which people will have a choice. If they want more of one thing they already have the maximum of they can swap with a neighbor for it. People who work hard will be rewarded with extra freetime, if you make 12 widgets a day for 5 days and the daily quota is 10 widgets, you get a day off since you did 6 days work in 5 days, therefore you get a day to yourself. If you want to slack off it is fine as long as you meet the daily quota, with the lack of unemployment and commercial labour there will be a large increase in industrial labourers, meaning less work is needed from the individual. The Corporations goal is maximum profit, the largest expenditure of any corporation are wages, as seen in the industrial revolution, Corporations would pay only the minimum of what a person needs to maintain itself. If a corporation is doing well, the workers don't profit, only the stockholders. If a corporation does poorly people are laid off, however the success of Corporations sadly isn't the responsibility of the workers, it is determined by the randomness of the stock market. There is little incentitive from the workers since they do not profit from the sucess of the company, they only work the minimum to appear they are working to the boss to get a promotion. That seems like a lot of work to get your choice of food rather than going to the grocery store and getting whatever kind of food you like. Besides, you can't really plan what kinds of food you will feel like eating every day. The success of a corporation is determined by how much of their product is sold. The stock market just shows how much their success is, by measuring how much a percentage is worth at a given time. So the stock market is not random, people just bet on it. It's another way the company makes money. The pay a worker gets is based on how much work they do, however companies that make more money pay their workers more than companies that don't, because they can afford it.
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Aeridea ComradeRedFerret People will have choice of food, they will get a standard "set" with the appropriate nutrition for the term containing your basic bread, vegetable, fruits, rice, etc. Then their will be luxery food ranging from honey to pizza, which people will have a choice. If they want more of one thing they already have the maximum of they can swap with a neighbor for it. People who work hard will be rewarded with extra freetime, if you make 12 widgets a day for 5 days and the daily quota is 10 widgets, you get a day off since you did 6 days work in 5 days, therefore you get a day to yourself. If you want to slack off it is fine as long as you meet the daily quota, with the lack of unemployment and commercial labour there will be a large increase in industrial labourers, meaning less work is needed from the individual. The Corporations goal is maximum profit, the largest expenditure of any corporation are wages, as seen in the industrial revolution, Corporations would pay only the minimum of what a person needs to maintain itself. If a corporation is doing well, the workers don't profit, only the stockholders. If a corporation does poorly people are laid off, however the success of Corporations sadly isn't the responsibility of the workers, it is determined by the randomness of the stock market. There is little incentitive from the workers since they do not profit from the sucess of the company, they only work the minimum to appear they are working to the boss to get a promotion. That seems like a lot of work to get your choice of food rather than going to the grocery store and getting whatever kind of food you like. Besides, you can't really plan what kinds of food you will feel like eating every day. The success of a corporation is determined by how much of their product is sold. The stock market just shows how much their success is, by measuring how much a percentage is worth at a given time. So the stock market is not random, people just bet on it. It's another way the company makes money. The pay a worker gets is based on how much work they do, however companies that make more money pay their workers more than companies that don't, because they can afford it. The problem is people don't buy food that will be nutritious for them, they don't take into account how much they need and buy whatever they want and throw away scraps. There isn't enough meat for everyone to have everyday. Add to the fact the US Government is paying farmers not to grow food on some of their fields, Capitalism allows only a minority to enjoy food while the rest starve. Stockholders can directly affect the company, if suddenly people start selling for whatever reason, the company suffers. The Company doesn't want to make more products, if it can, it wants to make Less. The Less there is of an object, the more it is worth, since companies control the resources, they can team up and limit production to maximize profit by getting rid of workers and the expenses of workers. McDonalds seems to be making a lot of money, how come the workers don't get paid much above minimum wage. Companies don't raise wages unless they need to, with masses of unemployed, they can simply threaten people to like the wage or they will hire someone else. There is no incentitive for the company to reduce profit for an ordinary worker.
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:08 pm
ComradeRedFerret Aeridea ComradeRedFerret People will have choice of food, they will get a standard "set" with the appropriate nutrition for the term containing your basic bread, vegetable, fruits, rice, etc. Then their will be luxery food ranging from honey to pizza, which people will have a choice. If they want more of one thing they already have the maximum of they can swap with a neighbor for it. People who work hard will be rewarded with extra freetime, if you make 12 widgets a day for 5 days and the daily quota is 10 widgets, you get a day off since you did 6 days work in 5 days, therefore you get a day to yourself. If you want to slack off it is fine as long as you meet the daily quota, with the lack of unemployment and commercial labour there will be a large increase in industrial labourers, meaning less work is needed from the individual. The Corporations goal is maximum profit, the largest expenditure of any corporation are wages, as seen in the industrial revolution, Corporations would pay only the minimum of what a person needs to maintain itself. If a corporation is doing well, the workers don't profit, only the stockholders. If a corporation does poorly people are laid off, however the success of Corporations sadly isn't the responsibility of the workers, it is determined by the randomness of the stock market. There is little incentitive from the workers since they do not profit from the sucess of the company, they only work the minimum to appear they are working to the boss to get a promotion. That seems like a lot of work to get your choice of food rather than going to the grocery store and getting whatever kind of food you like. Besides, you can't really plan what kinds of food you will feel like eating every day. The success of a corporation is determined by how much of their product is sold. The stock market just shows how much their success is, by measuring how much a percentage is worth at a given time. So the stock market is not random, people just bet on it. It's another way the company makes money. The pay a worker gets is based on how much work they do, however companies that make more money pay their workers more than companies that don't, because they can afford it. The problem is people don't buy food that will be nutritious for them, they don't take into account how much they need and buy whatever they want and throw away scraps. There isn't enough meat for everyone to have everyday. Add to the fact the US Government is paying farmers not to grow food on some of their fields, Capitalism allows only a minority to enjoy food while the rest starve. Stockholders can directly affect the company, if suddenly people start selling for whatever reason, the company suffers. The Company doesn't want to make more products, if it can, it wants to make Less. The Less there is of an object, the more it is worth, since companies control the resources, they can team up and limit production to maximize profit by getting rid of workers and the expenses of workers. McDonalds seems to be making a lot of money, how come the workers don't get paid much above minimum wage. Companies don't raise wages unless they need to, with masses of unemployed, they can simply threaten people to like the wage or they will hire someone else. There is no incentitive for the company to reduce profit for an ordinary worker. People are entitled to that choice. If some abuse this, why make all others suffer? And the reason the government is paying farmers to not grow crops on all their land is to promote crop rotation. If one grows crops in the same place every year, there will be no nutrients in the soil, and then the entire area cannot be used to grow crops. People sell stocks when they feel the company is about to go down, and yes, the company suffers from that, but the actual worth of the stock is what makes people sell their share. And companies work to create more of a better product, because they compete with other companies. The only case where companies would team up is if the companies are not making enough of a profit and are hoping to save their business. How hard is it to flip patties? The wage is based on how much work you have to do, mentally and physically. Plus, most people working at fast food places are teenagers, and there are laws about how much a company can pay them and the number of hours they must work. McDonald's also uses it's money creating more of their restaraunts around the world.
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:46 pm
Sorry for my Late reply, been busy Aeridea ComradeRedFerret Aeridea ComradeRedFerret People will have choice of food, they will get a standard "set" with the appropriate nutrition for the term containing your basic bread, vegetable, fruits, rice, etc. Then their will be luxery food ranging from honey to pizza, which people will have a choice. If they want more of one thing they already have the maximum of they can swap with a neighbor for it. People who work hard will be rewarded with extra freetime, if you make 12 widgets a day for 5 days and the daily quota is 10 widgets, you get a day off since you did 6 days work in 5 days, therefore you get a day to yourself. If you want to slack off it is fine as long as you meet the daily quota, with the lack of unemployment and commercial labour there will be a large increase in industrial labourers, meaning less work is needed from the individual. The Corporations goal is maximum profit, the largest expenditure of any corporation are wages, as seen in the industrial revolution, Corporations would pay only the minimum of what a person needs to maintain itself. If a corporation is doing well, the workers don't profit, only the stockholders. If a corporation does poorly people are laid off, however the success of Corporations sadly isn't the responsibility of the workers, it is determined by the randomness of the stock market. There is little incentitive from the workers since they do not profit from the sucess of the company, they only work the minimum to appear they are working to the boss to get a promotion. That seems like a lot of work to get your choice of food rather than going to the grocery store and getting whatever kind of food you like. Besides, you can't really plan what kinds of food you will feel like eating every day. The success of a corporation is determined by how much of their product is sold. The stock market just shows how much their success is, by measuring how much a percentage is worth at a given time. So the stock market is not random, people just bet on it. It's another way the company makes money. The pay a worker gets is based on how much work they do, however companies that make more money pay their workers more than companies that don't, because they can afford it. The problem is people don't buy food that will be nutritious for them, they don't take into account how much they need and buy whatever they want and throw away scraps. There isn't enough meat for everyone to have everyday. Add to the fact the US Government is paying farmers not to grow food on some of their fields, Capitalism allows only a minority to enjoy food while the rest starve. Stockholders can directly affect the company, if suddenly people start selling for whatever reason, the company suffers. The Company doesn't want to make more products, if it can, it wants to make Less. The Less there is of an object, the more it is worth, since companies control the resources, they can team up and limit production to maximize profit by getting rid of workers and the expenses of workers. McDonalds seems to be making a lot of money, how come the workers don't get paid much above minimum wage. Companies don't raise wages unless they need to, with masses of unemployed, they can simply threaten people to like the wage or they will hire someone else. There is no incentitive for the company to reduce profit for an ordinary worker. People are entitled to that choice. If some abuse this, why make all others suffer? And the reason the government is paying farmers to not grow crops on all their land is to promote crop rotation. If one grows crops in the same place every year, there will be no nutrients in the soil, and then the entire area cannot be used to grow crops. Because if you make all suffer when a few abuse, the many will make sure the few won't do it again. Crop rotation isn't the reason because growing turnips and other such vegetables regrow the depleted nutrients taken from the soil. Also the act of paying farmers for not growing was during President Roosevelt's "New Deal" where the lowered production of food brought food prices back to a profitable level for farmers and helped yield the great depressionPeople sell stocks when they feel the company is about to go down, and yes, the company suffers from that, but the actual worth of the stock is what makes people sell their share. And companies work to create more of a better product, because they compete with other companies. The only case where companies would team up is if the companies are not making enough of a profit and are hoping to save their business. Stock markets are unstable, with an outside factor determining much of the outcome, it also creates a huge risk of depressions. Also what is stopping companies from simply uniting and agreeing on the lowest price cap for objects, forcing people to buy at their identical costs? You see it all the time in stores, with few expecptions where the company pursues greater profit, like a can of soup can be a dollar in one store and yet 1.70 in another, because the store knows many people will pay the extra cost if they don't know anyplace else.How hard is it to flip patties? The wage is based on how much work you have to do, mentally and physically. Plus, most people working at fast food places are teenagers, and there are laws about how much a company can pay them and the number of hours they must work. McDonald's also uses it's money creating more of their restaraunts around the world. So a CEO who sits on a chair, goes to meetings every odd week, deserves 400 times more money then a Construction worker. Flipping burgers is much harder then it sounds and the wages are highly disportionate, what motivation is it to the company to give an ordinary minion a higher wage, they would prefer to keep it themselves. The socialist wage control may be in effect in Euraope and North Africa, but where are all the world's industries moving to? China, India, Africa, Countries without inhibiting minimum wage, with horrid conditions, people will be willing to work for only pennies a day. The capitalist system still hasn't changed from the Industrial Revolutions Laissez faire, only the location has changed, and in a country with even more and poorer people. This will also have a devestaing effect on our economies, as all our manufactories move to asia, only comerce will remain, our entire economy depends on how much goods are consumed, eventually another market crash will once again cripple the system, but it will affect world wide then
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:14 pm
Smithwillsuffice... Not to come across as insulting, but as far as communism goes, there's a one-liner that I go by: "Communism would have been great, were it not for the communists." I honestly believe that it was one of the best 'on paper' ideas of all time, but it was also very subject to human failure. What does anyone have aginst a republic? It has flaws, but so do all things.
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:31 pm
Myslec Smithwillsuffice... Not to come across as insulting, but as far as communism goes, there's a one-liner that I go by: "Communism would have been great, were it not for the communists." I honestly believe that it was one of the best 'on paper' ideas of all time, but it was also very subject to human failure. What does anyone have aginst a republic? It has flaws, but so do all things.
Not to mention, when 51% of the people get their way, there still the 49% who don't. Republics are a step above direct democracies, but they still have plenty of trouble compromising.
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:46 am
Myslec Smithwillsuffice... Not to come across as insulting, but as far as communism goes, there's a one-liner that I go by: "Communism would have been great, were it not for the communists." I honestly believe that it was one of the best 'on paper' ideas of all time, but it was also very subject to human failure. What does anyone have aginst a republic? It has flaws, but so do all things. I've nothing against the concept of a Republic, just as I've nothing against the concept of Communism. In practice however, they have both proven themselves to be easily taken advantage of; and the republic has lasted longer under it's own corruptnes than Communism did. It's not so much 'Republics' as 'The current Republics' that are the cause of the discontent.
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:46 pm
So basically, we have yet to find a magical government that keeps officials from becoming corrupt and keep the people happy?
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:35 am
Aeridea So basically, we have yet to find a magical government that keeps officials from becoming corrupt and keep the people happy? Now you're getting it!
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:23 pm
ChaosZorya Aeridea So basically, we have yet to find a magical government that keeps officials from becoming corrupt and keep the people happy? Now you're getting it! The trick is to find said magical government.
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:33 pm
Aeridea So basically, we have yet to find a magical government that keeps officials from becoming corrupt and keep the people happy?
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