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Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:48 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre State your views on: Violence in the revolution An innveitabilty that can be seen from history. The change from slave societies to feudalism occured with destruction of Rome, the Feudal kings were overthown by various national revolution preaching of life, liberty, and property. It proably won't be the highlight of human history but if we want to progress as a society I do not see any other viable option that doesn't involve some violent actions. Though the revolution will proably be more defensive than offensive in nature. Such as communist forces gaining power in the national governemnt and the capitalists organizing a coup, or a huge strike occurs and the capitalists declare marshall law, something like that. Louis-Auguste Robespierre Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolution No if we make gaining power in a government dominated by the Bourgeoisie class we'll have to compromise our ideals to make headway and become little more than political prostitutes. Louis-Auguste Robespierre What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolution It's main duties will be to spread our ideas and inform the masses, as well as organizing the masses in an efficent manner acting as a sort of central hub in communicating with working class orginazations. Louis-Auguste Robespierre What part will the party play in the revolution It's main duty will be to call upon the revolution and create a revolutionary government to make sure the new national goverment doesn't become deformed due to revisionists in the ranks. Louis-Auguste Robespierre I'm not extremely comfortable with it but I do see the need to make sure people aren't running around shooting at things. There needs to be waiting periods, restrictions on types of ammunitions and types of guns, as well as licenses and permits. Louis-Auguste Robespierre I think there brutish weapons and would like to see full disarmanent. However, I have the hypocracy of the world powers tell smallers nations that they are not allowed to have them when they themselves own enough to glass a continent or two. So I'm guessing nothing substantial will be done until after the revolution. Louis-Auguste Robespierre Maoists are better than Theocrats, nuff said. Louis-Auguste Robespierre Really there is no war but the class war.
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:02 am
Here's what I think, State your views on:
Violence in the revolution: Necessary.
Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolution: Revolution
What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolution: Spread our ideas to the masses
What part will the party play in the revolution: Making sure the government gets reformed correctly.
Gun control: Permits and restrictions on ammunition types are fine.
Nuclear weapons: No support whatsoever.
Tibet: No comment.
Class struggle: Oppression and Oppressed will always exist unless a communistic society is put in place
But that's only my opinion.
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:28 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre State your views on: 1. Violence in the revolution 2. Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolution 3. What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolutio 4. What part will the party play in the revolution 5. Gun control 6. Nuclear weapons 7. Tibet 8. Class struggle 1. It's essential for a successful revolution. 2. Revolution. 3. The party needs to attract and organise people, and act as a central command for the troops come revolution. 4. Ideological headquarters. It'd be like the Red Army high command in a way. 5. Makes the revolutionaries have to turn to the black market to get the necessary equipment. 6. They're an abomination and ruined war as we knew it. 7. Tibet's better off under the Chinese than under the slavemaster and monster the Dalai Lama. 8. It's the basis of the revolution. It gives the workers a specific basis for struggle against the enemies of the revolution.
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:08 pm
Violence in the revolution Sadly necessary. I'm against violence for violence sake, but there comes a point when it is needed in order to change things for the better and if you insist on nonviolence in those situations I think it makes you no better than those who need to be over thrown. Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolution Revolution. I used to think that it was a process that could happen gradually, but the more I think and learn the more I come to believe that nothing will change unless its forced too. What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolution I really don't feel that I know enough to answer this question at the moment. What part will the party play in the revolution Same here. Gun control I don't believe that guns should be banned, but I think there should be some level of control. I'm actually a gun owner at the moment and I (unlike so many other gun owners) am comfortable with the level of control in my state. Nuclear weapons No. Just no. Tibet I'm really torn about this. On the one hand I don't like the idea of one country invading another, but on the other hand I don't have my head up the Dalai Llama's a** and think that China has done good things for the Tibetan people. Class struggle This is another one of those things I don't feel like I'm educated enough to comment on at the moment. I'm working on changing that though.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:10 am
iheartevil What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolutionI really don't feel that I know enough to answer this question at the moment. The Party is one of the most vital roles of a proletarian revolution. The proletariat lack alone the radicalism that is required to form a powerful revolutionary force. The modern day party mainly its vanguard holds the duties of clearing the social biases of Marxism, defending it's revered name from political opponents,and to advance its concepts,via articles leaflets and a website. They must further, educate the proletariat, while also making sure it does not alienate itself from the working class. Once the enormous tasks of winning the majority of the workers support the party must then-in order to full oppose the ruling class- serve as the leading operator the revolution by acquiring arms for the proletariat, continue the distribution of articles and leaflets, and to serve as the military command hub designed to teach guerrilla warfare, and street warfare tactics. Since it is here where the party begins working outside the law it must preform its tasks carefully... iheartevil Class struggleThis is another one of those things I don't feel like I'm educated enough to comment on at the moment. I'm working on changing that though. In certain stages of development in the means of production, classes emerge! With classes also emerges the struggle for one class to dominate the other. In today's epoch it is the Proletariat who seek to protect their Wages via Strikes and Unions. The capitalists want to cut wages in order to gain maximum surplus-value from the commodities they sell, in addition, they want to maintain their rule over the working class. It is our job to make fellow members of the working class aware of the historical necessity for us to overturn their system so that classes need not exist
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:38 am
Just a few comments or links that might help out: iheartevil Violence in the revolutionSadly necessary. I'm against violence for violence sake, but there comes a point when it is needed in order to change things for the better and if you insist on nonviolence in those situations I think it makes you no better than those who need to be over thrown. I... really like this. iheartevil Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolutionRevolution. I used to think that it was a process that could happen gradually, but the more I think and learn the more I come to believe that nothing will change unless its forced too. Unfortunately, this is true. Even if we were to imagine that the capitalists would not deny us legal avenues for reform, there would come a point where they refuse to let us go further. at that point we will see a 'slave-holders rebellion' as Marx once said. iheartevil What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolutionI really don't feel that I know enough to answer this question at the moment. What part will the party play in the revolutionSame here. I really like what Trotsy said in his pamphlet The Lessons of October: "Without a party, apart from a party, over the top of a party, or with a substitute for a party, the proletarian revolution cannot conquer." The reason for this is that the working class will only reach militant Trade Unionism on its own. The capitalists will fight against tthat, and it is likely that really craven people will enter the leadership of the unions in that case, but there is no possibility of a revolution. What is needed is a party that is above that and which can say to the working class: This is what is happening, and this is what needs to be done. Such a party will fight for revolution, explaining what needs to be done, how to do it, and will fight against the working class succumbing to backward ideology. A more thorough treatment can be found in Lenin's classic work What Is To Be Done?iheartevil Gun controlI don't believe that guns should be banned, but I think there should be some level of control. I'm actually a gun owner at the moment and I (unlike so many other gun owners) am comfortable with the level of control in my state. My position is that in countries with gun control, the state has a more or less complete monopoly of violence. As such, it can do what it likes without much resistance. This is why I feel it is necessary to allow ownership of combat weapons as a means of defence against the state--and their lackeys, the fascists. iheartevil Nuclear weaponsNo. Just no. My position on nukes is much the same as that of guns: if any country is to be at all independent of the imperialists, it requires its own means of defence. A big army does nothing against nuclear weapons. iheartevil TibetI'm really torn about this. On the one hand I don't like the idea of one country invading another, but on the other hand I don't have my head up the Dalai Llama's a** and think that China has done good things for the Tibetan people. I think you will find this interesting. iheartevil Class struggleThis is another one of those things I don't feel like I'm educated enough to comment on at the moment. I'm working on changing that though. The Manifesto of the Communist Party has this to say: Modern Industry has converted the little workshop of the patriarchal master into the great factory of the industrial capitalist. Masses of laborers, crowded into the factory, are organized like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army, they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois state; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, in the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself. The more openly this despotism proclaims gain to be its end and aim, the more petty, the more hateful and the more embittering it is.
The increasing improvement of machinery, ever more rapidly developing, makes their livelihood more and more precarious; the collisions between individual workmen and individual bourgeois take more and more the character of collisions between two classes. Thereupon, the workers begin to form combinations (trade unions) against the bourgeois; they club together in order to keep up the rate of wages; they found permanent associations in order to make provision beforehand for these occasional revolts. Here and there, the contest breaks out into riots.
Now and then the workers are victorious, but only for a time. The real fruit of their battles lie not in the immediate result, but in the ever expanding union of the workers. This union is helped on by the improved means of communication that are created by Modern Industry, and that place the workers of different localities in contact with one another. It was just this contact that was needed to centralize the numerous local struggles, all of the same character, into one national struggle between classes.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:55 pm
Comrade Rob and Louis-Auguste Robespierre, thanks for the information/links! I've added the links in to my ever growing list of stuff to read.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:25 pm
Comrade Rob The Party is one of the most vital roles of a proletarian revolution. The proletariat lack alone the radicalism that is required to form a powerful revolutionary force. The modern day party mainly its vanguard holds the duties of clearing the social biases of Marxism, defending it's revered name from political opponents,and to advance its concepts,via articles leaflets and a website. They must further, educate the proletariat, while also making sure it does not alienate itself from the working class. Once the enormous tasks of winning the majority of the workers support the party must then-in order to full oppose the ruling class- serve as the leading operator the revolution by acquiring arms for the proletariat, continue the distribution of articles and leaflets, and to serve as the military command hub designed to teach guerrilla warfare, and street warfare tactics. Since it is here where the party begins working outside the law it must preform its tasks carefully... Not to nitpick too much but this is one view. And I will touch on that there are people who see mass worker revolution as preferable to Vanguard Party actions I won't defend them here. The general idea on my version of Marxism is not this of subordinating worker's too the party because of two reasons: the fact that in time the party may be filled with opprotunists, and lastly that the proletariat councils and such subservience will may make them weak and unaccustomed to decisions it should know if and when the time comes that they need to. The Vanguard party has an integral role, this is true but it should not have a domineering role over all else. There should be radical elements in the proletariat by this point, they should be used to help rally and spread propaganda amongst the workers and general populace and be given important tasks during and before the revolution, whether a member of any party participating in this revolution or not There should be a partnership between the party and the proletarian support behind them that is equal. The Party indeed may have to teach the Proletariat things but the party itself is not already in the position of knowing everything it yet needs to know. the proletariat and the party both much grow and develop to their roles respectively and having subservience of one to the other is detrimental as they should grow to and arrive at their roles at the same time. Otherwise indeed it seems we'll have a fledgling unsure proletariat and a large overconfident party. Yes the party's roles is significant but the focus should not be all on the party, the purpose in the beginning of the revolution should be the Proletariat.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:35 pm
Comrade Mann Comrade Rob The Party is one of the most vital roles of a proletarian revolution. The proletariat lack alone the radicalism that is required to form a powerful revolutionary force. The modern day party mainly its vanguard holds the duties of clearing the social biases of Marxism, defending it's revered name from political opponents,and to advance its concepts,via articles leaflets and a website. They must further, educate the proletariat, while also making sure it does not alienate itself from the working class. Once the enormous tasks of winning the majority of the workers support the party must then-in order to full oppose the ruling class- serve as the leading operator the revolution by acquiring arms for the proletariat, continue the distribution of articles and leaflets, and to serve as the military command hub designed to teach guerrilla warfare, and street warfare tactics. Since it is here where the party begins working outside the law it must preform its tasks carefully... Not to nitpick too much but this is one view. And I will touch on that there are people who see mass worker revolution as preferable to Vanguard Party actions I won't defend them here. The general idea on my version of Marxism is not this of subordinating worker's too the party because of two reasons: the fact that in time the party may be filled with opprotunists, and lastly that the proletariat councils and such subservience will may make them weak and unaccustomed to decisions it should know if and when the time comes that they need to. The Vanguard party has an integral role, this is true but it should not have a domineering role over all else. There should be radical elements in the proletariat by this point, they should be used to help rally and spread propaganda amongst the workers and general populace and be given important tasks during and before the revolution, whether a member of any party participating in this revolution or not There should be a partnership between the party and the proletarian support behind them that is equal. The Party indeed may have to teach the Proletariat things but the party itself is not already in the position of knowing everything it yet needs to know. the proletariat and the party both much grow and develop to their roles respectively and having subservience of one to the other is detrimental as they should grow to and arrive at their roles at the same time. Otherwise indeed it seems we'll have a fledgling unsure proletariat and a large overconfident party. Yes the party's roles is significant but the focus should not be all on the party, the purpose in the beginning of the revolution should be the Proletariat. The thing is, those that support the Party are likely to join it (I am talking prior to the revolution). What I seem to be getting is this fear that the party will become Stalinist once in power, but little appreciation for the situation that allowed it. It seems you suggest that the party purposefully reject people so that after the revolution there are people outside it to 'keep it honest' thus weakening the party during the revolution. If I'm wrong, please clarrify.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:37 pm
iheartevil Comrade Rob and Louis-Auguste Robespierre, thanks for the information/links! I've added the links in to my ever growing list of stuff to read. No problem. You should also check out the chat some time.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:45 pm
Comrade Mann Comrade Rob The Party is one of the most vital roles of a proletarian revolution. The proletariat lack alone the radicalism that is required to form a powerful revolutionary force. The modern day party mainly its vanguard holds the duties of clearing the social biases of Marxism, defending it's revered name from political opponents,and to advance its concepts,via articles leaflets and a website. They must further, educate the proletariat, while also making sure it does not alienate itself from the working class. Once the enormous tasks of winning the majority of the workers support the party must then-in order to full oppose the ruling class- serve as the leading operator the revolution by acquiring arms for the proletariat, continue the distribution of articles and leaflets, and to serve as the military command hub designed to teach guerrilla warfare, and street warfare tactics. Since it is here where the party begins working outside the law it must preform its tasks carefully... Not to nitpick too much but this is one view. And I will touch on that there are people who see mass worker revolution as preferable to Vanguard Party actions I won't defend them here. The general idea on my version of Marxism is not this of subordinating worker's too the party because of two reasons: the fact that in time the party may be filled with opprotunists, and lastly that the proletariat councils and such subservience will may make them weak and unaccustomed to decisions it should know if and when the time comes that they need to. The Vanguard party has an integral role, this is true but it should not have a domineering role over all else. There should be radical elements in the proletariat by this point, they should be used to help rally and spread propaganda amongst the workers and general populace and be given important tasks during and before the revolution, whether a member of any party participating in this revolution or not There should be a partnership between the party and the proletarian support behind them that is equal. The Party indeed may have to teach the Proletariat things but the party itself is not already in the position of knowing everything it yet needs to know. the proletariat and the party both much grow and develop to their roles respectively and having subservience of one to the other is detrimental as they should grow to and arrive at their roles at the same time. Otherwise indeed it seems we'll have a fledgling unsure proletariat and a large overconfident party. Yes the party's roles is significant but the focus should not be all on the party, the purpose in the beginning of the revolution should be the Proletariat. Well there are two spheres to a party. The Proletariat and the Vanguard. The vanguard is made up of the most dedicated and politically advanced proletarians. The actions of the proletarians in the party are just as important as those in the vanguard. The vanguard is there to assure the continuance of the party really. I don't propose but actually loath the idea of the vanguard rising above the workers.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:40 pm
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Comrade Mann Comrade Rob The Party is one of the most vital roles of a proletarian revolution. The proletariat lack alone the radicalism that is required to form a powerful revolutionary force. The modern day party mainly its vanguard holds the duties of clearing the social biases of Marxism, defending it's revered name from political opponents,and to advance its concepts,via articles leaflets and a website. They must further, educate the proletariat, while also making sure it does not alienate itself from the working class. Once the enormous tasks of winning the majority of the workers support the party must then-in order to full oppose the ruling class- serve as the leading operator the revolution by acquiring arms for the proletariat, continue the distribution of articles and leaflets, and to serve as the military command hub designed to teach guerrilla warfare, and street warfare tactics. Since it is here where the party begins working outside the law it must preform its tasks carefully... Not to nitpick too much but this is one view. And I will touch on that there are people who see mass worker revolution as preferable to Vanguard Party actions I won't defend them here. The general idea on my version of Marxism is not this of subordinating worker's too the party because of two reasons: the fact that in time the party may be filled with opprotunists, and lastly that the proletariat councils and such subservience will may make them weak and unaccustomed to decisions it should know if and when the time comes that they need to. The Vanguard party has an integral role, this is true but it should not have a domineering role over all else. There should be radical elements in the proletariat by this point, they should be used to help rally and spread propaganda amongst the workers and general populace and be given important tasks during and before the revolution, whether a member of any party participating in this revolution or not There should be a partnership between the party and the proletarian support behind them that is equal. The Party indeed may have to teach the Proletariat things but the party itself is not already in the position of knowing everything it yet needs to know. the proletariat and the party both much grow and develop to their roles respectively and having subservience of one to the other is detrimental as they should grow to and arrive at their roles at the same time. Otherwise indeed it seems we'll have a fledgling unsure proletariat and a large overconfident party. Yes the party's roles is significant but the focus should not be all on the party, the purpose in the beginning of the revolution should be the Proletariat. The thing is, those that support the Party are likely to join it (I am talking prior to the revolution). What I seem to be getting is this fear that the party will become Stalinist once in power, but little appreciation for the situation that allowed it. It seems you suggest that the party purposefully reject people so that after the revolution there are people outside it to 'keep it honest' thus weakening the party during the revolution. If I'm wrong, please clarrify. No no. Historically Parties purposefully at points lets people join. Party membership figures jumped to new levels under Stalin's tenure. I'm saying because so much emphasis was put on the party it was weakened. Because so many joined it weakened the party. Do you not agree? The party should be inclusive but it shouldn't be the decide all factor enough that everyone wants to hop the fence to the winning side and dilute it. Otherwise we stupid s**t like the Yelstin-Gorbachev rivalry. I'm working on both combating that and as well safeguards to work against it theoretically. I just like to be through and cover all angles.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:04 pm
Comrade Mann No no. Historically Parties purposefully at points lets people join. Party membership figures jumped to new levels under Stalin's tenure. I'm saying because so much emphasis was put on the party it was weakened. Because so many joined it weakened the party. Do you not agree? The party should be inclusive but it shouldn't be the decide all factor enough that everyone wants to hop the fence to the winning side and dilute it. Otherwise we stupid s**t like the Yelstin-Gorbachev rivalry. I'm working on both combating that and as well safeguards to work against it theoretically. I just like to be through and cover all angles. Ah, yeah, ok. After the revolution, I am very fond of Lenin's "better fewer, but better" comment. it is definitely to keep the party separate as an organ to direct the working class and the state, as opposed to an bureaucratic officiary.
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:01 am
State your views on: Quote: Violence in the revolution Only once every other reasonable avenue has been exhausted Quote: Can we get to communism gradually, or do we need a revolution A revolution is required - but not necessarily a revolution in the sense of a civil war. A revolution can be carried out in relative peace - and just because there is no major civil war does not mean a revolution has not occured. Quote: What part will the party play in the preparation for the revolution It will be especially concerned with raising the consciousness of the masses to a revolutionary level, and forming cadres of strong activist leaders. Quote: What part will the party play in the revolution The leading role. Guns have little place in society now, particularly in urban areas, but total gun control is a dangerous thing being as it removes a definite revolutionary option, and for governments, in the Lockean sense, to fear its people less. Nuclear weapons are a bane upon humanity because their very existence threatens the entire human species (not to mention most other species!). They should be abolished and nations should be discouraged from producing nuclear weapons. But until such a time as the imperialists begin to disarm no progressive peoples forces can be fully committed to complete disarmament without taking a serious risk. Nations have the right to self determination, and the Tibetan people should be free to govern themselves in whatever way they see fit. That is not to say that I am for the restoration of the Dalai Lama's government. Simply that proletarian democracy should be more in the hands of Tibetans than it is portrayed in the US media. It is everywhere
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:20 am
Comrade Mann Steven Hawkings I have to ask you all...Even if Communism takes hold, it does not prove much in the end. It will be replaced, though the goal is to have a anarchic type in the end...blah blah blah. Progression is the point kHawkings, goddamn as a man of science you should be behind progression. And anybody who says that ICBM's are 40's techology really does not know how nuclar weapons progam is all about. Nor do they know the lifespan of a warehead. Also I have no intrest in your ways or ideas, as who you fight against. Your just the other side of the spectrum. I'd rather go down my own road then be run be a colletivist group of the masses.
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