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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:22 pm
They didn't have anything remotely like vampires in Mesopotamia. Vampires are pre-Christian European. He's practically from the wrong continent. The closest thing Mesopotamians had were demons that waited around their father's deathbed to steal his soul and use him as a slave.
This leads me to think that either Betel is the first vampire and therefore or he's not a vampire. This leads into my next point about his digestive system. If he does have the digestive system you describe, Betel not a vampire. Vampires don't eat flesh. They suck blood and only blood. He's starting to sound more like a ghoul, which would make him Middle-Eastern if he's ancient.
Unless you mean his second manifestation changed his entire physiology, which is quite far-fetched.
I am okay with the Court having power through Betel, as an elder of the vampiric community.
Vague doesn't always cut it when it comes to specific events in a story. That's why we're putting so much effort into it.
"Okay so the saying the whole manifestation thing in addition to all the vampires might've been the wrong word"
I do not understand this sentence.
Hey, a trait is a trait. It's one of the things that come up in literature. We're not here to say whether mythology is stupid. I think the Holy Trinity in Christianity is stupid but that doesn't change the fact that people believe in it and that it plays a part in human history. rolleyes If you don't want the plague thing we can say it was bred out.
Elders are just old vampires. They're not a new species. Cultural differences are differences in behaviour. Traits are physiological differences. They may not be obvious but they are still there. Would you like me to provide an example?
Dryads move as easily as trees do.
Dragons have been around longer than vampires. As have human-headed animals, animal-headed humans and ghosts.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:48 pm
Exactly! I wanted the Court to be things that could identify as vampires in the current context...not during ancient times. Yes they'd all most likely be considered demons in ancient times and would Betel really be considered a vampire if he was in the Byzaninite Empire during the fifth and sixth century. -waves arms about- Another thing he's not the one with the snake like digestive system. It was just an example of another manifestation. Betel's current one granted him flight and a...Predator like jaw. Vague is good enough for the fact that the manifestation affects each and every vampire differently. There's no recorded list of all known manifestations. I guess in light of evidence, the Elders of the Court would be more like actual demons than vampires...but hey maybe that could play out in some fashion. I think the Aztec might be the closest thing to the vampire since s/he might've been around when Spain conquered those empires. Exactly which is why I find the whole, let's include every bloody difference in it when vampire is a enough of a catch-all. -facepalm- I'm so glad that we established genetic traits, now if you wanna pick out some amount of definitely different vampires that could lay ground work for the newer ones then that'd create bloodlines. So dragons wouldn't be hunted for the threat they posed during early ages...and the human/animal things wouldn't be hunted during the Discovery...Ghosts, ehhh I kind of want to say they fade away over time.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Just because you want the current version of what a vampire is, doesn't mean you can ignore 5500 years of history. There was no such thing as a vampire in Mesopotamia at the time he was created so his history is flawed. If there had been something similar with a different name it would have been okay but there isn't. Etymology doesn't matter but physiology does. There is no creature like Betel recorded in Mesopotamian history, thus he could not have come from there and he could not have been from a race that predated the modern vampire. He would not have had any of his manifestations back then either. He would have been a baby by vampire standards.
Why would he have such a jaw if he's a blood sucker? That jaw would be a hindrance to his feeding patterns, unless he now eats people whole. That would mean his entire physiology changed. Was he ever a normal vampire who had the traits of one species of vampire?
Okay, so a manifestation can be defined as a physiological or magical change that happens at two different but definitive maturation points in vampire life. Is that suitable vague?
Vampire as a collective is a catch-many but common vampire as a species is specific. Hey, I've worked with bloodlines and evolution before. It happens when you're creating characters that can span the entire of human civilisation. Unfortunately, it also means you have to work with human history, rather than against it.
I knew you would say that, but it all depends on the person's strength of spirit. Some fade and some do not. If a ghost wants to remain on earth they will exercise themselves so they do not fade.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:29 pm
Edit: Alright, but what if the vampires on the council were like...ancestors to vampires. Which might make them demons and also explain how they're so different, buh it'd make since in a way I guess. Betel, the Ottoman, and the Aztec "vampires" are the ones active within the mythos society and the other elders are incredibly reclusive. Another thing Betel is from Mesopotamia he's from the Byzantine empire around 450 A.D.
Idk maybe the way...wait are you talking about that example manifestation or Betel's? Betel's could probably be laced with some type of fast-activing sedative or something...idk
...How...-sighs- yes that's what I mean whenever I say manifestation, and they only no of two they might have more but it happens when they are older. -shakes head- Just...just forget about the bloodline thing, since it'd probably be too convoluted unless there was like...less then twenty.
Really? They might do so, but standing against the test of time they'd probably get bored awful quick of the cycles and what not. Sure they might be able to stay...-thinks- Can you honestly see a ghost being around for a millennium when it has nothing to do? Maybe if a civilization was governed by a ghost in secret it could happen.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:36 pm
Demons and vampires are different. Okay, there is one way it could work, but you'd have to agree completely. Vampires could be a specific species with specific traits. It would mean little room for variation because anything else would be considered not a vampire and would possibly not be able to interbreed with vampires. It would mean they have to be created a certain way, feed a certain way and have originated in central Europe. It would also mean either they weren't noticed by humans until up to C1st AD or they originated around C1st AD.
They had demons in Mesopotamia.
Yeah, Betel's manifestation. He's the crazy teeth guy, right? Crazy teeth would hinder blood sucking... unless he has a lamprey's (animal, not pokemon) mouth.
I'm going to lay down in the fresh air. A mixture of not speeling and Pete's driving has made me pukey.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:42 pm
Oh oh can we go with the vampires not being noticed until the 1st century AD since that'd explain the Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Chinese elders. The Mayan elder is iffy since they were around from like....2000 BC to like...I wanna say 15th century AD or near that timeframe since...they got conquered by the Spanish...wait, damn it, Mayans were probably the ones that disappeared. Would it be okay if most of the elders, (Meso, Egypt, China) were traveling and were in Central Europe at about 1st Century A.D.? Betel's manifestation, the picture, had him with wings and what seemed like mandibles that come from his cheeks. Like...I don't exactly want to find the pic but it'd seem like his lips became fangs when he stretches his mandibles. Bifurcated mandibles that's the word! Here's the manifestation again, since we might be somewhat confused. Alright I'll be up for a while, and I'm curious about your vampire proposal thing.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:31 pm
Well, we'd basically be following the traditional European version of a vampire, that way we wouldn't have to worry about subspecies (eg, aswang and nosferatu). If they did come up, they'd be another type of blood-sucker rather than an actual vampire. We'd have to be able to explain why they are different from vampires, which would mean we'd have to specifically identify what a vampire is (and isn't).
When I meant didn't get noticed, I meant they were still in central Europe but there are no surviving records of them or that humans hadn't perceived them yet.
The elders? You mean the vampire court elders, rather than the Die Synode elders? Mayan wouldn't work because it's on another continent. At least Egypt, Mesopotamia, Europe and China would allow for land migratory patterns. IF the elders did come from such places, vampires older than them would have had to walk to these places. Also, Mesopotamia does not have any vampires and Egyptians are more focused on animal-headed humans and human-headed animals. Egypt and Mesopotamia would not work, especially since these two empires had writing before Europe. Europe has less surviving records than the other places so they would be easier to escape notice in Europe.
I'd like for vampires to have remained in Europe at least until the Greek and Roman Empires. At that time they would have heard more about the world and travelled further across the globe. It would mean Betel could have moved to the area formerly known as Sumer and changed his name to blend in with the people. He could have then moved back to Europe during the Reformation and eventually headed the vampire court, which almost died out during the Holocaust.
The Chinese elder court member could have been created by a vampire who explored China during the expansion of the Macedonian empire. Alexander took over the Mesopotamian region at that time too.
We can just scrap the Egyptain and have a Gaul instead.
Aaah, that one. The mouth makes more sense in that one.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:49 pm
...Hmmm okay how about saying the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Elders are Ghuls, it'd sort of make sense for Egypt cause of arabic influences and such....same with Mesopotamia. What about the Aztec elder? It'd be possible for the Spanish to have gone over, and a vampire could've slipped on a ship...stayed in the bow/under the deck and feasted on the crewman during the night time. So just how old would the Chinaman vampire? Also Betel is young, he's part of the Byzantine empire...I think around 453 AD was when I decided he was born.
I guess it'd be a bit much trying to hope for China getting vampires from Greek and Chinese explorers reaching the new world and the vampire became lost in the jungle or something...ah okay. Hmm What about England or, hmm I guess Spain could serve the same purpose but I still think the Aztec is possible.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:11 pm
They can be ghouls or demons. Remember the time I mentioned that sat by their father's deathbed to steal his soul? That would be cool. They also had a man who discovered the secret of immortality. Dang it, I'm already reading another book. I don't want to read Gilgamesh at the same time.
A vampire on a Spanish ship would be too obvious and not enough room to manoeuvre. It'd have to be an epic sized armada to work and I don't know how many ships they sent in exploration to the Americas.
Chinaman could be... about 2300-years-old (excluding the age he was when he was a human). In total he could be about 2350yo+/- 20 years.
They could be as old as humanity in England, France, Germany or the Scandanavian countries. There was a lot of movement throughout central and northern Europe, especially in pre-history when humans followed hunting routes and seasonal changes.
It could work with Spain but I do not know enough about Spanish history to say if they did have vampires or not.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:24 pm
I meant the arabic version of ghoul; (Wiki) "In ancient Arabian folklore, the ghūl (Arabic: غول , literally demon)[5] dwells in burial grounds and other uninhabited places. The ghul is a devilish type of jinn believed to be sired by Iblis.[6]
The Arabian ghoul is a desert-dwelling, shape shifting demon that can assume the guise of an animal, especially a hyena. It lures unwary travellers into the desert wastes to slay and devour them. The creature also preys on young children, robs graves, drinks blood, steals coins and eats the dead,[5] taking on the form of the one they previously ate.
In the Arabic language, the female form is given as ghouleh[7] and the plural is ghilan. In colloquial Arabic, the term is sometimes used to describe a greedy and/or gluttonous individual."
...What about one that was turned into a vampire while on the ship, and once they landed it escaped into the jungles of Central America. Spain could probably work if it was the Basque region since it's close to southwest France.
Damn it then the Spaniard will be the oldest vampire, then I'd want the Spaniard to be a girl. Don't care about the Ghuls, aside from them being the oldest.
Edit: Realized the answer to what I was asking.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:39 pm
That sounds cool to me. smile
True, you could have the vampire turning half the ship into vampires, and threatening the leftover humans. The humans work the day shift and the vampires work the night shift. When they got to the Americas they could either kill off the humans or use them as slaves until they established themselves on the new continent, thus being the source of vampirism in America.
You do realise a jinn is a type of genie? I've got something on them somewhere... hopefully.
Gauls as vampires could be cool, or there are plenty of other groups throughout Europe. They had so many kings during the times of the Vulsunga Saga it's hard to keep track. LOL
Reply to edit: Which question?
EDIT: Damnit. All I have left of genies is this:
Genie:
Afrit
Jinn
Jinni
Marid
I'll have to hunt down each of them again. asljfld;jfal;sdfj
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:46 pm
Oh Djinni are so much fun and yes I know a Ghul is a type of Djinn/genie. In fact a Ghul is the "earth" version of a Djinn or one associated with the element. An Ifrit/Efrit/all the other variations are associated with fire. A Jann or was it just a Djinn is associated with air...and Marids are associated with water, which you probably knew. Hell there was another kind that wasn't associated with an element and more like a servant of Iblis.
Well for the vampries reaching the new world, I was thinking more of one bitten human being turned midway through the voyage somehow and when they reach land they escape into the jungle since the canopies would possibly provide sufficient darkness from the sun.
It was an obvious question that made me feel stupid, though how hard is Tik biting? If it's hard enough for a human, then it might not penetrate the skin...but could probably arouse Tok. I had some inkling that he bit just hard enough and that mid way through her shift her breasts start lactating but that'd be slightly weird.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:50 pm
Hmm, I don't ever remember them being elementals. I thought they were more to do with levels of strength.
That depends. We'd have to figure how long the transformation takes before deciding that. Also, we'd have to decide their habits in terms of sleeping and the effects of the sun.
He wanted to make her nipples bleed. She wouldn't start lactating unless she had really weird hormone levels.
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:02 pm
Well there's that too. Apparently a Marid is the strongest and well they tend to sources of water, like I think lakes and such. Ifrits are the second highest and...I'm not really sure why they are associated with fire, but they love the underground and ruins. Wait I remember, in modern art they're most likely associated with fire because of FinalFantasy and that they are classed as infernal Djinn, I think... Ghuls and Jann/Djinn don't really have a rank I think...and well the whole elemental thing might've been my doing since there's like five types, and four seem to congregate toward a specific locale.
True and now that I think about it, you're way of thinking with half the crew being vampires makes more...definitive way to explain it. How odd would it be if the Spaniard was on one of the ships?
Yeah I realized how stupid it'd be to have her start lactating without continual stimulation for induced lactation, and I think I got a way in which she'll handle it. Though did he materialize with his head underneath her bra? Or above it and bit through the fabric?
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:23 pm
Hmmmm.... I'll read up on them later. This is the first I've heard of them being associated with the elements. I'm doing work stuff amongst Gaia so I can't agree or disagree right now.
Above her bra, but he would have bitten down enough to go through a padded bra, if that's what you're thinking.
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